I Think I Found Why Adam is the Darklord

[The Lesser Evil]

Theere has been a lot of discussion about whom should be the darlord of Lamordia and for what crimes. I picked up something in the novel Mordenheim where, after being cast out permanently, that Adam calls to the gods to curse Mordenheim with agonizing for all eternity and to link both monster and maker together such that Mordenheim will not escape his torment through death and that Adam may serve to punish the doctor for his crimes. So in a way, Adam transgressed even what was beyond the dread golem- he wished to eternally torture state rather than give him a quick physical death. Thus, he got what he asked for (which is unique among the darklords that Adam got to decide his curse.)

The above event seems to be the cause of Lamordia beind drawn into the Mists. That's when the regeneration and mutual feeling of pain kickd in.

Thoughts?

[Quinntonia]

I certainly like that as a the event that begins the time of Lamordia in Ravenloft, but I think there is room to imply that this realm is ruled by two Darklords, both the good Doctor and Adam. I think that Adam in that moment becomes the Darklord of Lamordia, but in his link also "elevated?" Mordenheim to that position.

At least, I enjoy the duality of that situation more than anything.

[alhoon]

Aside of what you say, which could explain it, I would prefer to go the "Gothic horror" route.
Adam is an unnatural creature, born out of one man's pride. As such, he's an anathema to the world and cursed for eternity for "the sins of the father" that are actually a theme in Gothic Horror. Add to this Adam's other crimes like turning against his creator, creating more soulless but mockery-of-life beings and violence and he goes beyond the "rank and file" dread golem and into darklordship.
However, the golem was doomed from the first moment Mordenheim decided he would prove to the Gods that he was their equal; there was no escape from his fate. He just chose to make it worse.

[The Lesser Evil]

However, the golem was doomed from the first moment Mordenheim decided he would prove to the Gods that he was their equal; there was no escape from his fate. He just chose to make it worse.

That's kind of a sticky wicket for me, since Adam being born infused with only malice and spite does away with something I think of is important to gothic horror (that evil is a choice.) I also feel the gods come out even more petty, spiteful, and full of hubris than Mordenheim did. Mordenheim didn't knowingly unleash a great evil onto the world, throw many innocents under the bus knowing the consequences, and then look the other way like it wasn't their problem anymore.

However, I suppose my nitpicks may be with how the gods of the Material Plane are written in the backgrounds of various Ravenloft supplements. And maybe just the Gothic mythos in general. I suppose the genre tropes in general don't necessarily lend themselves to being coherent by some modern standards.

[Ryan Naylor]

Originally, only in character sources claimed that Adam had been "born bad." That's changed a bit since then, but I think it's a really important aspect to bear in mind.

It suit both Mordenheim *and* Adam to excuse Adam's behaviour as being completely evil from the beginning.

M: "It wasn't my fault! He was born bad!"
A: "It's not my fault! He made me like this!""

... When a more suitably gothic choice is that Adam made the conscious decision to be evil and to destroy Mordenheim's life. Thus acting in the role of the gods themselves (echoing Moderheim's hubris), as well as consciously choosing evil.

Plus, we don't know exactly what Adam did to Eva (ignoring LotB, which was a bad idea in this case). We only know what Mordenheim saw afterwards, and what Adam said happened. He (possibly) killed the only person who loved and respected him and whom he loved out of a desire to hurt Mordenheim.

Basically, you should take both of their histories with a grain of salt, because both of them lie. Even in third person text.

[alhoon]

born infused with only malice and spite does away with something I think of is important to gothic horror (that evil is a choice.)

Not really. Evil is a choice for the human, not the monster in Gothic horror; every vampire created by Dracula for example was an evil monster whether they were good or bad prior. Same with a werewolf; A man cursed to lycanthropy will commit crimes that doom him. Also, in Gothic horror, there's the "inescapable evil" kind of thing: If your line was evil you'll eventually succumb to your inner darkness.
That "evil creates evil" is one of the reasons heroes have to go stop the evil and defeat it. Evil left "untended" would fester and expand and corrupt and create more evil.

I also feel the gods come out even more petty, spiteful, and full of hubris than Mordenheim did.

Yeah, but that's kinda their purview; they can seem petty and spiteful to us because "we don't understand" them. Or something. I'm not really an expert into Victorian era morals. I tell you what I've gathered from the Gothic books etc.

[Ryan Naylor]

The point is that Adam was as perfectly created he was a man, not a monster.

[Ryan Naylor]

Also, RL was written in 1980, not 1880, and by game designers, not literary scholars, so the tropes will necessarily be filtered through modern sensibilities.

[alhoon]

The point is that Adam was as perfectly created he was a man, not a monster.

Nah, no mortal can do that. Hence, Adam was an abomination.

[The Lesser Evil]

The point is that Adam was as perfectly created he was a man, not a monster.

Nah, no mortal can do that. Hence, Adam was an abomination.

Actually, evern since the Black Box (RoT p. 106), it was implied that Mordenheim might have (or at least he was getting close enough for the gods to sweat losing their claims over it, which then brought them to corrupt his efforts as payback for threatening their power.)

Originally, only in character sources claimed that Adam had been "born bad." That's changed a bit since then, but I think it's a really important aspect to bear in mind.

The bit about the gods infusing Adam with evil has been around since the black box (also RoT, p. 106), unless you are implying this is one of the "third person" spoken sources.

... When a more suitably gothic choice is that Adam made the conscious decision to be evil and to destroy Mordenheim's life. Thus acting in the role of the gods themselves (echoing Moderheim's hubris), as well as consciously choosing evil.

Perhaps, but the reading I take away from it is a bit more complicated than that. For some strange reason, Adam curses himself to damnation just as much as curses Mordenheim.
("Let Mordenheim feel what I feel, let my fate be his and his mine, and let there be no pain between us that is not shared! Do this for me, and I swear I will do your ends, for evil or for good, as you will!

Now he could've lied about damning himself as much as Mordenheim. However, I think it says a lot more about his character if we accept that lline as he says it but also read in between the lines on what he didn't say, or at least, didn't mean to say. The feeling I get is that what Adam feels is almost the inverse of pride. Purposefully condemning oneself to eternal torment is not an act of pride so much as an act of self-condemnation

Everything about Adam deals with his broken ego and despair. He presumes everybody will inherently hate them. While that can be a judgement of people's pettiness, it's also a judgement of him not being good enough for them. (Even when Hilda demonstrates him wrong by accepting him, he still fails to accept that at least one person can accept him.) Adam attempts suicide. Even his own domain doesn't reflect him- it reflects Mordenheim. However, in a sense it also refects Adam because it reflects his sense of self-loathing such that he's not even strong enough to shape the character of his own domain. Even his strong desire for acceptance (but rejection when give) is a sign that he hates not only what he is but who he is, because he can't accept himself.

If we say that Mordenheim and Adam are two sides of them same coin, that Mordenheim is cold, whereas Adam burns hot with bitter emotion, then perhaps this also applies to their relation to the gods. If Mordenheim is conscious hubris in defiance of the gods, then perhaps Mordenheim is the equally dark inverse. Mordennheim believes he can accomplish anything, whereas Adam assumes he can accomplish nothing. Adam does not presume to take the place of the gods- he believes he is bound to their will. Adam is perhaps somewhat like Satan (as imagined as an angel to tempt and punish mankind- a servant of the divine.)

Although Adam might be said to have an implicit or unconscious sort of pride in thinking his perceptions matched the will of the gods (arguably, they might have), it is a twisted, nihilistic piety that drives him the furthest from the gods. He had too much faith in the gods' presumed inherent damnation of him, which led to despair and ultimately to nihilism. It is Adam's belief that he is not good enough that drives him away from goodness. He can be said to choose evil, but perhaps this is not so much out of pride but more of wrath and bitterness being born of despair.

I've scratched my head for a long time on how to find some moral order from the presumably story of Adam and Mordenheim. Perhaps the cautionary tale is that of the self-fulfilling prophecy. Mordenheim, like the sculptor in Pygmalion, thought him able to defy the will of the gods and create a man, so he did. The gods saw Mordenheim as loathesome and worth of punishment, so he became so. Elise and Adam himself believed he was irredeemably evil by nature, so he became so.

Nobody seemed to come out unscathed- perhaps even the gods, if we see all those empty shrines littering Lamordia all over the place- that would imply it would almost imply that the gods were punished in being cut off from their worshipers.

So whereas hubris is one of the malevolent forces at play here, I think it's probably only the most overt (and not nessarily the darkest one). Whereas an excess of pride (hubris) can keep one from seeing the right path, debasement (too little pride) can keep one from choosing the right path. Arguably, the latter is worse because it is the acceptance of evil. "Some people just want to watch the world burn..."

[Mortavius]

Adam is one of my favorite Darklords because I love the Frankenstein story.

I agree with Ryan; I think Adam's crime to become the Darklord is his murder of Eva. I never bought the whole "born bad" idea, because Darklords are supposed to earn their domains through their choices and actions. Implying that Adam never had a choice, means he shouldn't be Darklord.

I know, there are exceptions to that rule (Ebonbane) but I'm okay with some of those exceptions. Adam is not among them.

I prefer to believe that Adam was born innocent, but chose evil. He chose to murder Eva as a way to hurt Victor. And I prefer to see that his connection to Victor is a curse; I believe that Adam would like to kill Victor if he could (at least some of the time) but he cannot.

I recognize that some of this may go against the novel in parts, but I'm okay with that. I've always viewed the novels as great stories that may or may not be 100% accurate to the canon material of the setting.

I think Ryan's line of "both of them lie" is the most telling. I have no problem believing that both of them portray themselves as the heroes of their own stories, regardless of the actual truth.

[alhoon]

I agree with Ryan; I think Adam's crime to become the Darklord is his murder of Eva. I never bought the whole "born bad" idea, because Darklords are supposed to earn their domains through their choices and actions. Implying that Adam never had a choice, means he shouldn't be Darklord.

Not a bad argument... but as you said not 100% true. Yes, choices make one a darklord in Ravenloft. But every dread golem is evil. Adam's choices put him appart and he got a domain to boot.
Every fiend is evil; yet Arijani's choices (and whomever fiend is tempted to make more power rituals) gave him a domain.
Ebonbane... now, I would also say that his choices led him to be trapped in a sword in Ravenloft too. Else why not grab every trapped in something fiend?

So, now that we've established that in all cases (with the partial exception of Ebonbane and Vecna) choices doomed the darklord let's move to another thing:
Adam was (IMO) born evil like every dread golem is. Sure, his choices made him trapped. But he was doomed from the outset to be evil (although not a darklord); he was made evil, an abomination, a crime against nature\order of things etc.
Arijani was also made evil. He just got tricked to be trapped.

[Five]

Interesting topic.

In regards to Adam and all dread golems being evil...was Adam a dread golem by "birth", or was he upgraded by the Dark Power(s) after being cemented in Ravenloft? A prototype so to speak. I assume that dread golem is a Ravenloft-specific creature, homebrew/RPG sandbox aside...

As a sidenote, I like the idea of Adam being a transient Dark Lord personally, with Mordenheim holding down the fort that is Lamordia. It's a split rule given their supernatural connection, yet Adam, because of his unique origins, is a plaything for the Powers that Are. His solitude and loneliness, through rejection, is the fuel for his wrath against all. And eventually, he draws it all back to target Mordenheim: his Original Betrayer.

"How can I move thee? Will no entreaties cause thee to turn a favourable eye upon thy creature, who implores thy goodness and compassion? Believe me, Frankenstein: I was benevolent; my soul glowed with love and humanity: but am I not alone, miserably alone? You, my creator, abhor me; what hope can I gather from your fellow-creatures, who owe me nothing? they spurn and hate me. The desert mountains and dreary glaciers are my refuge. I have wandered here many days; the caves of ice, which I only do not fear, are a dwelling to me, and the only one which man does not grudge. These bleak skies I had, for they are kinder to me than your fellow-beings. If the multitude of mankind knew of my existence, they would do as you do, and arm themselves for my destruction. Shall I not then hate them who abhor me? I will keep no terms with my enemies. I am miserable, and they shall share my wretchedness. Yet it is in your power to recompense me, and deliver them from an evil which it only remains for you to make so great that not only you and your family, but thousands of others, shall be swallowed up in the whirlwinds of its rage. Let your compassion be moved, and do not disdain me. Listen to my tale: when you have heard that, abandon or commiserate me, as you shall judge that I deserve. But hear me. The guilty are allowed, by human laws, bloody as they are, to speak in their own defence before they are condemned. Listen to me, Frankenstein. You accuse me of murder; and yet you would, with a satisfied conscience, destroy your own creature. Oh, praise the eternal justice of man! Yet I ask you not to spare me: listen to me; and then, if you can, and if you will, destroy the work of your; hands."

A different Adam, yet that "whirlwind" is a very dark play by unfathomably dark powers to keep the other Dark Lords in line. Yeah, Adam is the raging enforcer and brawler of Ravenloft. He's everybody's guest that without fail overstays his welcome. A fool to some, an oddity to others, a potential plaything (or weapon) to others still. His inevitable berserking at not fitting in and constant "betrayal" keeps him on the move (and coming back)...but only after untold destruction. Not even Azalin or Strahd wants that time bomb ticking in their domains. And not even they can end his existence. Besides, any pain inflicted on him is inflicted on his father, a fact that he knows very well. So double his pain, then double his pleasure.

On the road again, learning what it is to learn, what it is to be, and to hate it all.

With a sometimes smirk.

But that's just me.

[Mortavius]

but as you said not 100% true. Yes, choices make one a darklord in Ravenloft. But every dread golem is evil. Adam's choices put him appart and he got a domain to boot.
Every fiend is evil; yet Arijani's choices (and whomever fiend is tempted to make more power rituals) gave him a domain.
Ebonbane... now, I would also say that his choices led him to be trapped in a sword in Ravenloft too. Else why not grab every trapped in something fiend?

You're exactly right, and that's why I said that rule doesn't apply to all the Darklords, much to my frustration.

To me, the Darklord status needs to be earned. And that's done through their choices and actions. Their damnation is their own choice.

I personally would say every default Dread Golem is evil...but only in the Monster Manual. If I want a Dread Golem to be an important, interesting NPC, and that NPC would be served better by having a non-evil alignment, then to hell with what the MM says. Or, if I want a Dread Golem just to be the "monster in the room" that the PCs fight and move on, then an evil alignment is perfectly fine.

As the years have gone by, I've seen less and less the importance of alignment in my games. Actions are what matter. My players can judge their opponents by their actions and choices, not because it says "Evil" on their stat block. For me, the alignment line is just a guideline. It's something that says to me "This creature generally acts in a villainous role."

But that's way off topic. I think we're saying the same thing. There are definitely Darklords that break the rule of earning their domain...but I can't say I've ever used them or paid them much mind in my own games.

Adam was (IMO) born evil like every dread golem is. Sure, his choices made him trapped. But he was doomed from the outset to be evil (although not a darklord); he was made evil, an abomination, a crime against nature\order of things etc.
Arijani was also made evil. He just got tricked to be trapped.

See for me, I see Adam as doomed to being an abomination from the outset, but I don't equate that with evil. Adam is the quintessential "got dealt a bad hand by life" character. He started behind the eight ball, and had harder choices than other beings. And all of that can be laid squarely at Mordenheim's feet.

But after all that, Adam didn't rise to the occasion. He gave in to hatred, rage, and selfishness. He destroyed an innocent life (Eva) and almost destroyed another (Elise), and why? Well, it's not entirely clear. Mordenheim says he did it deliberately. Adam says he was acting in self-defense. Personally, I don't believe either one of them; I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

But he still chose to do what he did. He could have run away. He had every opportunity that stormy night to leave; no one could have stopped him.

That's why I think, as evil as Mordenheim is, Adam deserves to be the Darklord.

[alhoon]

I personally would say every default Dread Golem is evil...but only in the Monster Manual. If I want a Dread Golem to be an important, interesting NPC, and that NPC would be served better by having a non-evil alignment, then to hell with what the MM says.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't go completely Gothic Horror with Ravenloft either. I've used Neutral dread golems. One was actually the adventure hook for the PCs. It got abducted as it was learning what was good and what was bad, and nobody cared cause it was a monster in their eyes. Except my PCs, that did risk to save that golem. Proving that goodness can be found and keeping it from turning to evil, abandoned etc. (Or, more probably, turning to components)
I was talking about GHorror perspective.

See for me, I see Adam as doomed to being an abomination from the outset, but I don't equate that with evil.

Yes, but this is (as Ryan correctly assessed) because you don't have the morals of 18th century popular fiction authors.
I do it because it's kinda convenient: That big blue dragon is evil. That Marilith is evil. Etc. No choices made.
The orc chieftain? Nah, he's not BORN evil. He just grew up in an evil society. If he was adopted by paladins as a baby he would have been more violent but not evil.


And I don't like the approach of "your great grandfather was an evil creature, he murdered more than 10 people. So you're coming from a damned tree and you have to fight VERY hard to contain the darkness that will, eventually, consume you. Because of your great grandfather's choices".
And yet... it has one foot in Ravenloft's door.