G’Henna, what to do with it?

[Nevermorrow]

That's a pretty cool reworking, yeah!

Thank you!

[alhoon]

So... final verdict?

On the drow: I like Drow. I totally keep an Underdark in the Core, under the darklordship of a gem-greedy gnome on a mushroom throne; he betrayed his people to drow. It's mostly passages that are semi-fluid in nature; mapping doesn't hold for long. Same with entrances-exits. Occasionally someone discovers an opening he had "missed" in the end of a cave, or the bottom of a crypt gives in. Occasionally, similar openings collapse. Closing the borders just reroutes the passages to lead back in.
I have (among other things) drow in there. That cave-delving society also explores the place.

[ewancummins]

So... final verdict?

On the drow: I like Drow. I totally keep an Underdark in the Core, under the darklordship of a gem-greedy gnome on a mushroom throne; he betrayed his people to drow. It's mostly passages that are semi-fluid in nature; mapping doesn't hold for long. Same with entrances-exits. Occasionally someone discovers an opening he had "missed" in the end of a cave, or the bottom of a crypt gives in. Occasionally, similar openings collapse. Closing the borders just reroutes the passages to lead back in.
I have (among other things) drow in there. That cave-delving society also explores the place.

WARNING: SPOILERS FOR PLAYERS WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH WHAT DARKLORDS ARE, OR THE PARTICULARS OF VARIOUS DARKLORDS

No final verdict (for me) on G'henna.

In the Mists over the Musarde and sequels game, it was replaced by wilderness and a smaller Shadow Rift.
But if I start a new, pre-GC game at some point? I dunno.

RE: Underdark and the drow

I like your gnome traitor idea! That's fun. It also addresses my concerns about a possible drow darklord.

Drow are a race of evil monsters. That's fine. Ravenloft certainly has evil monster races. But how many darklords come from such races? Some, to be sure, but I think not very many. I am not counting undead or cursed/infected lycanthropes as 'races' for purposes of this question.

Most darklords didn't start off as evil or as monsters but began as free-willed humans (or similar beings) and fell from grace, becoming corrupt through the choices they made.
They could have chosen good, but they chose evil instead.

Also--gnoooommmeeezzz!

[alhoon]

You surmise the goal behind my idea pretty well...

Drow as darklords? That's a "yawwwn" + "So, what this particular drow matron did that was so different than other matrons?" and no, betraying Lolth isn't that rare in the NE/CE drow society.

A greedy dwarf? Also expected.
But a greedy gnome? That's more rare and unique. IIRC I didn't even have that gnome as an illusionist, but as a rogue.
Also... GNOMMMEEZZZzz!

[ewancummins]

You surmise the goal behind my idea pretty well...

Drow as darklords? That's a "yawwwn" + "So, what this particular drow matron did that was so different than other matrons?" and no, betraying Lolth isn't that rare in the NE/CE drow society.

A greedy dwarf? Also expected.
But a greedy gnome? That's more rare and unique. IIRC I didn't even have that gnome as an illusionist, but as a rogue.
Also... GNOMMMEEZZZzz!

Yes to all of that.


I have thought of adapting Fafnir's story. A greedy-dwarf-who-becomes-a-dragon. That could make for a cool draconic darklord, IMO.

Probably not for Arak, though. I'd make that one for a new domain.

[thekristhomas]

I have a vague memory of there being many other aspects of Zhakata other than the devourer, presumably these required different acts of devotion, so maybe before GC the starvation thing wasn't as big a part of the religion maybe?

[ewancummins]

I have a vague memory of there being many other aspects of Zhakata other than the devourer, presumably these required different acts of devotion, so maybe before GC the starvation thing wasn't as big a part of the religion maybe?

The land was rock, dusty, and cold in the Black Box description. But I did get the impression that a big part of why people went hungry was because of poor central planning and government (ecclesiastical, which is the same thing in G'Henna) corruption.
The clerics of Zkahata require all food be brought to them and they will redistribute it. That sounds so stupid that even without corrupt, fat priests taking food from hungry workers, it would cause problems. But the church is led by an evil guy and I'm guessing many of the priests are also evil. Not a recipe for honest administration.
I suspect some of the environmental conditions could be the result of overgrazing and damaging, poor farming techniques. Dustbowl.
Maybe Yagno had forests cleared to build big temples in honor of Zhakata?



This all sounds a lot like communism. Not the kind with monks agreeing to live together or a little village sharing common fields, but the Lenin/Stalin (or Mao) sorts of communism.
I'm also thinking of the Taborites, Jan of Leiden, etc.

[ewancummins]

Hmm, tying this into the Black Box Falkovnia thread, maybe a fair number of G'hennans did flee hunger in their homeland--to Falkovnia.
They would likely have been enslaved or conscripted.
Or impaled, if they seemed like trouble-makers.

I'll have to check the dates when the two domains appear/form.

[Cromstar]

Or impaled, if they seemed like trouble-makers.

[Vlad thoughts]Foreigners coming to take our food? Sound like trouble makers to me.[/Vlad thoughts]

In all seriousness, the way I always viewed the hunger was that most of the people DO believe. After all, there is no doubt that Petrovna has the blessing of 'Zhakata.' There is more than enough reason for people to buy into the faith itself, in the promise of some greater reward. The whole trope the realm is based on is that kind of almost-delusional blind fanaticism. Basically, think the Heaven's Gate or Jonestown cults. People will buy into what, to the overwhelming majority of us, are absurdly crazy beliefs.

I also never pictured the hunger as famine-level problems, more like 'everyone is malnourished and hungry, but not starving to death.' In other words, the system is marginally corrupt and extremely inefficient, resulting in just about everyone receiving less food than they should get. A lot of stuff is spoiled before distributed, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the priests add riders like 'the rest of this will surely go to help some poor souls who are worse than you are, so take comfort in Zhakata, who sees the good you do.'

[ewancummins]

Or impaled, if they seemed like trouble-makers.

[Vlad thoughts]Foreigners coming to take our food? Sound like trouble makers to me.[/Vlad thoughts]

In all seriousness, the way I always viewed the hunger was that most of the people DO believe. After all, there is no doubt that Petrovna has the blessing of 'Zhakata.' There is more than enough reason for people to buy into the faith itself, in the promise of some greater reward. The whole trope the realm is based on is that kind of almost-delusional blind fanaticism. Basically, think the Heaven's Gate or Jonestown cults. People will buy into what, to the overwhelming majority of us, are absurdly crazy beliefs.

I also never pictured the hunger as famine-level problems, more like 'everyone is malnourished and hungry, but not starving to death.' In other words, the system is marginally corrupt and extremely inefficient, resulting in just about everyone receiving less food than they should get. A lot of stuff is spoiled before distributed, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the priests add riders like 'the rest of this will surely go to help some poor souls who are worse than you are, so take comfort in Zhakata, who sees the good you do.'

Right.

The domain is portrayed as full of malnourished and miserably oppressed folk in Circle of Darkness, or so I am told.

But in the Black Box it seems that most people are generally happy. Yes, the winters are harsh. Yes, the land is cold and rocky.
But G'henna supports at least one large city.

And as you note, the people mostly do seem to believe in Yagno's imaginary god.

I like to look at the etymology.

G'Henna-->Gehenna---> Valley of the Son of Hinnom

After thinking about this for a while and reading the relevant parts of the Bible, I'd say that the main theme in G'henna isn't starvation. It's idolatry.


Starvation is the means of sacrifice.

The Valley of the Son of Hinnom was a place that became associated with idol worship and the sacrifice of children.

Yagno worships a false god. Not just an evil god, but a false god. Zhakata does not actually exist.

It may be that the dryness is a curse on the land. Maybe Yagno tells people that Zhakata is angry because there are blasphemers among them. But Yagno himself is the great blasphemer and false prophet. He has deluded himself and led others along with him, committing grave moral offenses in the name of a non-existent god.
Starving innocent people to death as a sacrifice is pretty horrible. Brainwashing/charming them so they do it ''willingly'' is perhaps even worse.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I have to admit I'm not really familiar with G'henna and its original place in the Core, but I think giving it a common border with Falkovnia would do much to dissuade people from fleeing there, no matter how bad the hunger level got. G'henna's culture of starvation increases the chance of uncertain death; going into Falkovnia increases the chance of certain death.

But if G'henna and Falkovnia share a border, why wouldn't Drakov have tried to invade? Even if the land looks a fairly useless slab of rock and dust, Drakov would give it a try just to prove his military supremacy.
I've got a little idea that would make it even harder for people to get out: turn G'henna into a dustbowl - at an elevation. If G'henna is a series of plateaus on top of mountains, getting in would be as difficult as getting out. Anyone trying to escape or invade would need to be a skilled mountaineer, whereas defence of the realm becomes much easier; G'henna's armed forces (if it has any) could set up avalanches and other traps - maybe conscripting civilians to do the heavy lifting, adding to their suffering - and rain down destruction on any Falkovnian troops that try to get in.

I'd like to suggest wedging the other border up against Darkon. To the religious folk of G'henna, stories of Darkon's undead and arcane magic would be horror enough. Add stories of the Hungry Dead, and most of the common folk would be terrified enough to stay out of the place as well. If Yagno was clever, he'd occasionally raise up a number of Hungry Dead himself or order his priests to, and let them sweep in from the direction of Darkon. Commoners would not necessarily question how the undead got in - common lore suggests the undead are tireless - and sacrificing a few 'blasphemous' commoners every now and then would make the others very eager to keep on the good side of the Clerics.

[ewancummins]

I have to admit I'm not really familiar with G'henna and its original place in the Core, but I think giving it a common border with Falkovnia would do much to dissuade people from fleeing there, no matter how bad the hunger level got. G'henna's culture of starvation increases the chance of uncertain death; going into Falkovnia increases the chance of certain death.

But if G'henna and Falkovnia share a border, why wouldn't Drakov have tried to invade? Even if the land looks a fairly useless slab of rock and dust, Drakov would give it a try just to prove his military supremacy.
I've got a little idea that would make it even harder for people to get out: turn G'henna into a dustbowl - at an elevation. If G'henna is a series of plateaus on top of mountains, getting in would be as difficult as getting out. Anyone trying to escape or invade would need to be a skilled mountaineer, whereas defence of the realm becomes much easier; G'henna's armed forces (if it has any) could set up avalanches and other traps - maybe conscripting civilians to do the heavy lifting, adding to their suffering - and rain down destruction on any Falkovnian troops that try to get in.

I'd like to suggest wedging the other border up against Darkon. To the religious folk of G'henna, stories of Darkon's undead and arcane magic would be horror enough. Add stories of the Hungry Dead, and most of the common folk would be terrified enough to stay out of the place as well. If Yagno was clever, he'd occasionally raise up a number of Hungry Dead himself or order his priests to, and let them sweep in from the direction of Darkon. Commoners would not necessarily question how the undead got in - common lore suggests the undead are tireless - and sacrificing a few 'blasphemous' commoners every now and then would make the others very eager to keep on the good side of the Clerics.

Her did invade. That's canon, as per the Black Box.

He lost.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

^^; Aww... I never got the Black Box. Didn't get into D&D until 3.5 ...

[ewancummins]

^^; Aww... I never got the Black Box. Didn't get into D&D until 3.5 ...

There isn't any detail on Drakov's invasion. It just notes that G'henna is one of the domains he he has attacked and failed to conquer.

I'll have to check the map, but I'm fairly sure G'henna is indeed somewhat higher in elevation than most of Falkovnia.

There is a small spur of mountains that runs along the border between the two lands, and the map shows G'Henna at a higher elevation than the lowland forests and clear areas of Falkovnia.

Let me check that...

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Well, there we go. ^^ Next option: INCREASE THE ELEVATION!

To paraphrase General Tacticus: 'If your enemy is in a supremely defensible position, see to it that he stays there... forever.'