Comments/suggestions on Jester's rules (5e)

[alhoon]

I think he's excellent.

Suggestion: I believe that Tristen's charming bite should have the "If the target takes damage, he or she can repeat the save"

I also think that he should be "boosted up" to CR 8 or something, perhaps by increasing his hp or damage.

[jules]

you should also do king crocodile & the ecological disaster darklord as well!
the smurfs & gargamel if your feeling silly would work as well.

[Jester of the FoS]

Suggestion: I believe that Tristen's charming bite should have the "If the target takes damage, he or she can repeat the save"

Good idea.

I also think that he should be "boosted up" to CR 8 or something, perhaps by increasing his hp or damage.

I haven't checked his exact CR yet and just eyeballed it. It's probably higher.
I just wanted to see if the forms-as-variants approach worked. He still needs some border closing powers and maybe some lair details. And his other forms should have additional legendary actions that should boost his damage per round.

[therealvang]

Thank you for converting this guy Jester. I have maybe about 2 or 3 more sessions before I bring my players into the land of mists and I was dreading converting a darklord so I really appreciate the help.

I haven't checked his exact CR yet and just eyeballed it. It's probably higher.
I just wanted to see if the forms-as-variants approach worked. He still needs some border closing powers and maybe some lair details. And his other forms should have additional legendary actions that should boost his damage per round.

A few thing I could suggest for addition to his vampyre form would be his ability to shapeshift into a worg. His 3.0 version in Gazetteer Volume 1 says he owns a +2 greatsword, Bracers of armor +3 (I assume these are just bracers of defense) and a ring of protection +3 if we added these items as they are in the DGM his AC would go up to 18 (I don't know if he can benefit from the items as a ghost)

For his ghost form he has some ability's in 2E that didn't seem to come over to his 3.0 version but exist in the van richten guide to ghosts.

Cause Revulsion Save vs Paralysis or maybe a call for a horror/fear check.
Gaze attack Which accelerates aging which sound crazy for 5e.
Keen 40ft radius Save or die which also seems to crazy for 5e

lastly he has a ability in both forms to spend a round absorbing essence from the border ethereal recovering all his hit points but leaving him incapable of acting for two rounds.

[Jester of the FoS]

A few thing I could suggest for addition to his vampyre form would be his ability to shapeshift into a worg.

That should be added.

His 3.0 version in Gazetteer Volume 1 says he owns a +2 greatsword, Bracers of armor +3 (I assume these are just bracers of defense) and a ring of protection +3 if we added these items as they are in the DGM his AC would go up to 18 (I don't know if he can benefit from the items as a ghost)

Magic items were mandated in 3e, so everyone is stacked with magic for math reasons. Unless an item has a name and/or is an iconic part of the character I'm included to ignore it.

For his ghost form he has some ability's in 2E that didn't seem to come over to his 3.0 version but exist in the van richten guide to ghosts.

Cause Revulsion Save vs Paralysis or maybe a call for a horror/fear check.
Gaze attack Which accelerates aging which sound crazy for 5e.
Keen 40ft radius Save or die which also seems to crazy for 5e

As above, 3e tended to have a lot of mandated powers. Like feats or ghost powers. They're just there because the rules say they were needed (for that edition) not because they serve a purpose.
I might tweak his ghost powers to make them more distinct though.

lastly he has a ability in both forms to spend a round absorbing essence from the border ethereal recovering all his hit points but leaving him incapable of acting for two rounds.

In 2nd Edition this took 2 turns, not rounds. Which was 20 minutes/rounds. It definitely an out-of-combat power done as a short rest. Which makes it something kept out of his main statblock.

[therealvang]

Thank you for the clarification jester. I am not all to knowledgeable with the rules of other editions so reading these older adventures and books always seems to confuse me a bit. Hopefully when I go to dexcon this year I can get in on a few 2e games so I can have a better understanding of how these ability would be better translated to 5e or what is more appropriate to be left out.

[alhoon]

I would agree that 3E and, let's not kid ourselves, 2E had tons of not-really-necessary magic items. I mean, Talons in Lekar were supposed to carry tons of magic items.
Still, for a darklord I would add a magic item unless not needed. If you beat him, you should get something for your trouble...

[therealvang]

After looking at the ghosts in 5e I noticed they have the horrifying visage action which we could consider adding to emulate his cause aging gaze and his cause revulsion.

If you beat him, you should get something for your trouble...

That was sorta my line of thinking with the items as well. I know the bracers would really fit into my game pretty well and the +2greatsword would allow him to use his STR for attacks and help him to keep up his guise as a normal human being should he be attacked by some over zealous adventures before they know what they are dealing with also they would probably up his CR to be closer to where Jacqueline is. Tristen and her only had a single point of difference between their CR's in 3.5. Let me know what you guy think about the horrifying visage suggestion.

[Ender]

So I'm a big fan of the inspiration-based Dark Shadows option you have here. It takes a lot of the flavorful Ravenloft feats and abilities and makes them available in bite-sized form. That said, I'm converting my 3.5 campaign to 5e (we only just started and the players and I both like 5e a lot) and am wondering how you would go about doing something. One of the players is a Godefroy human (from Legacy of the Blood). He has the Ethereal Empathy and Ghostsight feats. In a couple levels, he planned to take the Haunted feat. In your system, Ethereal Empathy and Ghostsight got wrapped up into the Gravesight Dark Shadow. I think that makes perfect sense. However, the player can't have the benefits of two Dark Shadows (Gravesight and Haunted), which I think I agree with. At least, it makes sense that they shouldn't have more than one without an actual mechanical drawback. Also, how would you replicate the bloodlines in Legacy of the Blood? To me, they sort of seem like distinct Human subraces more than backgrounds or Dark Shadows. What do you all think?

[alhoon]

In your system, Ethereal Empathy and Ghostsight got wrapped up into the Gravesight Dark Shadow. I think that makes perfect sense. However, the player can't have the benefits of two Dark Shadows (Gravesight and Haunted), which I think I agree with. At least, it makes sense that they shouldn't have more than one without an actual mechanical drawback. Also, how would you replicate the bloodlines in Legacy of the Blood? To me, they sort of seem like distinct Human subraces more than backgrounds or Dark Shadows. What do you all think?

1. I think that 5e goes back to the fundamental rule "do what's best for the story and don't sweat so much for the rules. They're a framework for you to play the DM's story".
If it fits, have him gain a 2nd dark shadow. If you feel it's unbalanced, put a slight mechanical drawback.
2. I live very very much your idea about the human subraces. Awesome for Vistani too.

[Ender]

1. I think that 5e goes back to the fundamental rule "do what's best for the story and don't sweat so much for the rules. They're a framework for you to play the DM's story".
If it fits, have him gain a 2nd dark shadow. If you feel it's unbalanced, put a slight mechanical drawback.
2. I live very very much your idea about the human subraces. Awesome for Vistani too.

1. Right, I definitely get that feel. I suppose I should have said: "Why kind of mechanical drawback would others propose for having more than one Dark Shadow?" or "What variant to Dark Shadows would people propose to accomplish this?"

2. I've been working on homebrew subraces for my Eberron game (Dragonmarks should definitely be represented by subraces and not a single feat), so I've got some idea how to balance them. Would you guys be interested in my take on Legacy of the Blood styled human subraces if I make a write-up soon?

[alhoon]

1. Depends on which dark shadow you want to put the pressure on. Since "Haunted" is the new one, I would say focus on that. What penalty? Depends on the ghost and the story I would say.
The ghost of a poisoned relative? Each time the player gets poison damage, he suffers 1 extra dice of poison. The ghost of an honorable merchant? Each time the character "cheats" according to the merchant, he suffers disadvantage on charisma checks for the next day. Something like that.
2. Personally, yes. I would be interested.

[Jester of the FoS]

The mechanical boons of Dark Shadows are meant to be small and tied to inspiration, which is awarded by the Dungeon Master.
As a rule I would discourage two Dark Shadows, replacing one with a strictly roleplaying benefit, but if the player isn't going to abuse the power and both shadows will benefit the game there's no reason not to.

[alhoon]

Coming from someone that has given RP-game-mechanic-changing rewards, I can tell you that the system is robust and if you're moderately fair (i.e. everyone gets the same boost) your game won't suffer. Sure, you may need to push the easy\medium\tough\deadly XP at 10% more. No biggie. And no, a second dark shadow wouldn't even affect your party's balance even by that much IMO.

I can say with absolute confidence that ability scores rolled are waaaay more important and game-changing than neat side-effects.
Example: One of my players was rewarded by a godess with "an increased chance to deal a grevious blow" (+1 to critical range). Great? Weeell.. instead of 19, she deals a crit at 18. So, there's a 5% chance she will deal one more dice of damage. No, it's not great even if it seems so.
Example 2: Another of my players was rewarded with "immortality". Yes, the same thing liches do horrible stuff for and get undeath and countless people started wars for.
He's unaging, is immune to natural diseases, immune to exhaustion from cold and heat. Great?
Not so much. He's an adventurer. We all know he wouldn't die from pneumonia but from a monster's attack and that's still the case.

Both these examples were no way as unbalanced as my sister's rolled abilities which after ratial bonuses ended up with 20,16 a 12 and all else at 14.
So, again, don't sweat it. Something that seems awesome (like immortality) probably isn't as awesome as it seems.

[therealvang]

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