The Amber Wastes Cluster, Al-Qadim and a new Campaign

[The Lesser Evil]

Oh, there's one another link between Zahkhara and Ravenloft: http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Sheneya Sheneya from Children of the Night: Werebeasts. She is connected to the Grand Snakemaster.

[Don Fernando]

What you're running into here is two concepts butting heads:
1) "The gens/Sha'ir are so special and different that they can break the rules of the multiverse"
2) "The Dark Powers are so special and different that they can break the rules of the multiverse"


Which one wins depends on which version of "special and different" you want to play up in your campaign. (Much like whether Superman or Batman wins depends on whose comic they are in at the time.) Naturally, with us being 'loft-heads, we'll push for the Dark Powers to win, but it's your choice. The Dark Power can create whole nations full of people out of nothing. I'm sure they can make a sufficient simulacrum of a fundamental elemental being that no mortal living within Ravenloft could tell the difference. Alternately, you can consider that elemental summoning does work in Ravenloft, but often twisted into dread elementals. (water->blood, earth->grave, air->mist, fire->pyre). You could have your gen twisted similarly, but that still doesn't prove or disprove whether the gen is actually leaving Ravenloft or not. (maybe they just think they are and the DP's whip up a domain/oubliette that looks like the plane they are going to.)

First of all I apologize for my late reply. I was out of town these past few days.

Now back to business. I'm not saying that Gens/Sha'ir are special, and I really not think they break the rules of the multiverse either. The fact that Sha'irs exist is that The land Of Fate has a somewhat more strong connection with the inner planes than any other part of Oerth. Hence the high presence of Inner Plane Beeings in the land. So in that regard, a Sha'ir is only harvesting another type of magic available for them. And Gens are happy to oblige, by fetching the spells from outside the prime material.

On the other hand, I see the DPs as rules lawyers regarding the multiverse and their laws and that they dont' break the rules of the multiverse by being like this. The do let people in, but hardly permit anyone to leave. After all it's their Deminplane, and they've reserve the right of admission.

The main thing is, as I stated before, Sha'irs get their spells out of a plane basically, not a particular deity. And this poses a big question regarding them and RL. Gen are havesters of this particular kind of magic, and they harvest it from the inner planes.

Now I'm not really sure, (I don't have my MC at hand) how RL Elementals come to being. I will have to check this out in order to determine if the Demiplane, actually is as magical as the Inner Planes are (magical in the sense of full of magic). I will come back with more about his though. Thanks for the idea!

Ravenloft has its own elemental: pyre, mist, blood, and grave. Additionally, in one of the netbooks, somebody wrote up a thing on a cluster of domains that were Ravenloft's equivalent to the elemental planes. Perhaps that's where the gens could go to get their spells. It could potentially be quite a harrowing experience for the gens as they return with horrid stories of going somewhere that exists as a perversion to what they know. It could be a similar starting point for many genies that are drawn into the mists, or perhaps Ravenloft has its own Mist-subtype equivalent of genies that exist there.

Yes, as stated earlier, it'll all depend on what's the nature of the RL elementals. And how this will define the Demiplane of Dread as a "more magical" place than any other, so that Gen can harvest magical energy for the Sha'ir's spells. If so, then RL would have their own breed of Gen, and that will also mean that there could be RL genies. And this will also mean that RL is not a pocket domain but an actual plane full of magic to be harvested and harnessed (which does nothing to agree with the actual concept of a Prision Domain on the deep etheral).

The Dark Powers have made the corrupt version of elementals with the dread elementals, so why not have them be a similar idea for the gen?

Al-kymer is probably there because Van Richten is working in world and doesn't know the difference between various things. He doesn't have access to the rulebooks or the cosmological overview that characters from places other than the Demiplane of Dread have, let alone the players/dms. He gets stuff wrong all the time in the books because he's forced to get his knowledge firsthand and by trial and error. That was what was so wonderful about the VR Guides, it's him stumbling through and giving you an idea of what normal people in the game world would think about thing.

Yes true, but the Children of the Night series were not written by VR as were the VR Guides. So in this regard we don't know if VR ever met Al-Khymer or not.

Oh, there's one another link between Zahkhara and Ravenloft: http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Sheneya Sheneya from Children of the Night: Werebeasts. She is connected to the Grand Snakemaster.

Thanks for the tip, I'll take a look right away.

[Resonant Curse]

The fact that Sha'irs exist is that The land Of Fate has a somewhat more strong connection with the inner planes than any other part of Oerth. Hence the high presence of Inner Plane Beeings in the land.

Just a nitpick, but Zakhara is on Toril, not Oerth.

On the other hand, I see the DPs as rules lawyers regarding the multiverse and their laws and that they dont' break the rules of the multiverse by being like this. The do let people in, but hardly permit anyone to leave. After all it's their Deminplane, and they've reserve the right of admission.

The main thing is, as I stated before, Sha'irs get their spells out of a plane basically, not a particular deity. And this poses a big question regarding them and RL. Gen are havesters of this particular kind of magic, and they harvest it from the inner planes.

Now I'm not really sure, (I don't have my MC at hand) how RL Elementals come to being. I will have to check this out in order to determine if the Demiplane, actually is as magical as the Inner Planes are (magical in the sense of full of magic). I will come back with more about his though. Thanks for the idea!

Given how the Dark Powers are able to warp the fabric of the demiplane to their will, if they do make "Dread Jin, as they make Dread Companions, allow Dread Elementals, etc., I don't see why they couldn't have Dread Jin just fabricate the spells out of the mists instead of going to the elemental planes. The Sha'iir might not know the difference as long as the spell effect is the same. That's how I'd adjudicate it anyway.

[Don Fernando]

The fact that Sha'irs exist is that The land Of Fate has a somewhat more strong connection with the inner planes than any other part of Oerth. Hence the high presence of Inner Plane Beeings in the land.

Just a nitpick, but Zakhara is on Toril, not Oerth.

You're right, sorry for that. I always get those two wrong.

On the other hand, I see the DPs as rules lawyers regarding the multiverse and their laws and that they dont' break the rules of the multiverse by being like this. The do let people in, but hardly permit anyone to leave. After all it's their Deminplane, and they've reserve the right of admission.

The main thing is, as I stated before, Sha'irs get their spells out of a plane basically, not a particular deity. And this poses a big question regarding them and RL. Gen are havesters of this particular kind of magic, and they harvest it from the inner planes.

Now I'm not really sure, (I don't have my MC at hand) how RL Elementals come to being. I will have to check this out in order to determine if the Demiplane, actually is as magical as the Inner Planes are (magical in the sense of full of magic). I will come back with more about his though. Thanks for the idea!

Given how the Dark Powers are able to warp the fabric of the demiplane to their will, if they do make "Dread Jin, as they make Dread Companions, allow Dread Elementals, etc., I don't see why they couldn't have Dread Jin just fabricate the spells out of the mists instead of going to the elemental planes. The Sha'iir might not know the difference as long as the spell effect is the same. That's how I'd adjudicate it anyway.

Well I checked and elementals are created differently in RL. As per the MC description on elementals, they take their powers from the Msts. So in this regard I think this can be a great solution for the Sha'ir.

One the one hand original Gens can be really hard to come by in the Demiplane, since summoning an inner plane being, much like summoning an elemental, can be a very tricky business. Even more when the Gen is aware that he will no be able to leave the Demiplane at will. This can pose good possibilities for roleplaying too. Gens are not allowed to leave the Demiplane in order to fetch spells, so instead they can go and fetch the spells out of the mists. Which kinda makes a lot of sense. The mists are part of the Etheral plane, and the etheral plane is the connection of the inner planes to the Prime material. So there must be a strong presence of inner plane energy in the etheral.

On the other hand, there can also be a special type of Gen native to RL. I'm thinking something on the lines of a Mist Gen. This gen can also fetch spells out of the mists but are more dangerous since the nature of the Demiplane is to twist things the wrong way. I'll have to work on this but I like the idea of a new type of Gen. This could also mean perhaps an expansion on the actual nature of the Mists that was partially explored in the Guide to the Mists.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Now back to business. I'm not saying that Gens/Sha'ir are special, and I really not think they break the rules of the multiverse either.

I was exaggerating a bit. I guess what I meant was more along the lines of:
1) "A major component of the cool factor of the gens/Sha'ir is that they travel to the inner planes and back"
2) "A major component of the cool factor of the the Dark Powers that they don't allow planar travel out of Ravenloft"

So which cool factor do you want to choose to win?

[Resonant Curse]

The mists are part of the Etheral plane, and the etheral plane is the connection of the inner planes to the Prime material. So there must be a strong presence of inner plane energy in the etheral.

Check the Planescape accessory A Guide to the Ethereal Plane for more on this, yes, there is spillage into the ethereal from the inner planes.

[Don Fernando]

Now back to business. I'm not saying that Gens/Sha'ir are special, and I really not think they break the rules of the multiverse either.

I was exaggerating a bit. I guess what I meant was more along the lines of:
1) "A major component of the cool factor of the gens/Sha'ir is that they travel to the inner planes and back"
2) "A major component of the cool factor of the the Dark Powers that they don't allow planar travel out of Ravenloft"

So which cool factor do you want to choose to win?

Win? What do you mean by "win"? Sorry if I don't understand, but as you might know english is not my first language..

[Resonant Curse]

Win? What do you mean by "win"? Sorry if I don't understand, but as you might know english is not my first language..

Which rule do you want to take precedence. Which is the more important rule.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Now back to business. I'm not saying that Gens/Sha'ir are special, and I really not think they break the rules of the multiverse either.

I was exaggerating a bit. I guess what I meant was more along the lines of:
1) "A major component of the cool factor of the gens/Sha'ir is that they travel to the inner planes and back"
2) "A major component of the cool factor of the the Dark Powers that they don't allow planar travel out of Ravenloft"

So which cool factor do you want to choose to win?

Win? What do you mean by "win"? Sorry if I don't understand, but as you might know english is not my first language..

No problem. By "win", I mean, these are competing concepts. One of them must prevail over the other. Either:

1) the Gen will really escape Ravenloft and go to the inner planes, coming back with spells (over the objections of the Dark Powers) because that's the cool part of the gen that you want to use in your story, or
2) the Dark Powers will prevent such travel, (either manufacturing a Gen who claims to go and return but doesn't, or manufacturing a place that the Gen thinks is really an inner plane, but isn't.) because that's the cool part of the dark powers that you want to use in your story.

Does that make more sense?

[The Lesser Evil]

The mists are part of the Etheral plane, and the etheral plane is the connection of the inner planes to the Prime material. So there must be a strong presence of inner plane energy in the etheral.

Check the Planescape accessory A Guide to the Ethereal Plane for more on this, yes, there is spillage into the ethereal from the inner planes.

Ooh, nice catch! Since it's possible for planar travelers to accidentally enter Ravenloft from the Ethereal Plane, it would make sense that some seepage from the Elemental Planes might be captured by Ravenloft from the Ethereal Plane as well. You have clumps of oubliettes (see the definition in VR's Guide to Mists) of elemental materials floating in remote parts of the Mists serving as a place for both outlander and Dread Companion gens to go to. (The outlander gens could try to visit the elemental planes but get "rerouted" to the collected elemental oubliettes that have been captured by the Mists.)

[Don Fernando]

Win? What do you mean by "win"? Sorry if I don't understand, but as you might know english is not my first language..

Which rule do you want to take precedence. Which is the more important rule.

No problem. By "win", I mean, these are competing concepts. One of them must prevail over the other. Either:

1) the Gen will really escape Ravenloft and go to the inner planes, coming back with spells (over the objections of the Dark Powers) because that's the cool part of the gen that you want to use in your story, or
2) the Dark Powers will prevent such travel, (either manufacturing a Gen who claims to go and return but doesn't, or manufacturing a place that the Gen thinks is really an inner plane, but isn't.) because that's the cool part of the dark powers that you want to use in your story.

Does that make more sense?

Ah nice, thanks for the clarification. I think the best altrenative is to consider that the DPs don't allow Gen to leave the Demiplane. However the can bestow the power to harvest the Inner Planes' magical energy out of the Mists themselves (since the Mists are actually the Border Etheral (as per the Guide to the Etheral Plane). This can apply to all non-native Gen.

The DPs can also grant native Gen to a Sha'ir. These Gen would be twisted versions of the original Gens, and of course could be made out of the RL versions of the main blocks of creation. Again these gens can harvest magical energy out of the Mists. At least that's what i'm planning, this last part requires more thought but I reckon it's a great way to adapt that to RL.

Ooh, nice catch! Since it's possible for planar travelers to accidentally enter Ravenloft from the Ethereal Plane, it would make sense that some seepage from the Elemental Planes might be captured by Ravenloft from the Ethereal Plane as well. You have clumps of oubliettes (see the definition in VR's Guide to Mists) of elemental materials floating in remote parts of the Mists serving as a place for both outlander and Dread Companion gens to go to. (The outlander gens could try to visit the elemental planes but get "rerouted" to the collected elemental oubliettes that have been captured by the Mists.)

Exactly. In fact that's how the RL elementals come to being according to the MC. The Mists provide them with the magic necessary to animate Blood, Pyre, Graveyard earth, etc.

I think since non-native Gens are also powerful elemental beings (not as powerful as Genies for example) they must be aware of the fabric of RL, and that they cannot leave. But just like they kknow that, once they enter the demiplane the could "gain" the knowledge that the place to harvest magical energy is the mists instead. Native Gens, should know that from birth.

[The Lesser Evil]

I llike the idea of outlander gens getting an unexpected auto-reroute the first time they try to retrive spells because then they can get all freaked out about it. Upon the gen's return, it can reflect about how unnatural and horrifying the experience was. I imagine the outlander gens would subjectively experience a vague process that was a sick parody of what they normally get to find their spells (although the memory might be hazy or broken- like a dream). Sort of another way to highlight the setting and its atmosphere, somewhat like the dread hollowness an outlander cleric can feel when entering Ravenloft.

[The Giamarga]

How did I miss this. Get yourself the Complete Necromancer Guide (CNG) asap. It contains an AQ island campaign idea and lots of great material.

Also there's a Dragon article in +198 called Scimitars against the Dark by Kuntz/Baur. Reimagining the Al-Qadim setting as "dark Arabia," inspired by the tales of Tanith Lee, H.P. Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith.

Good stuff.

I recommend running a Dark Ravenlofty Al'Qadim vs Al Qadim in ravenloft. I.e. no dark powers, no special. ravenloft rules (except maybe fear, horror, madness). CNG has it's own corruption for necromancers mechanic btw.


If you're running with PFRPG, check out Kobold Design's 10 Arabian Adventures, and their upcoming Southlands.

[The Giamarga]

Now back to business. I'm not saying that Gens/Sha'ir are special, and I really not think they break the rules of the multiverse either.

I was exaggerating a bit. I guess what I meant was more along the lines of:
1) "A major component of the cool factor of the gens/Sha'ir is that they travel to the inner planes and back"
2) "A major component of the cool factor of the the Dark Powers that they don't allow planar travel out of Ravenloft"

So which cool factor do you want to choose to win?

BTW i never found the gen traveling to the inner places and back a major component of the cool factor for AQ. It's just a little fluff similar to a PFRPG Witches familiar and patron. So i would not get too hung up by this.

PS: Get the CNG! Really!

[Don Fernando]

How did I miss this. Get yourself the Complete Necromancer Guide (CNG) asap. It contains an AQ island campaign idea and lots of great material.

Also there's a Dragon article in +198 called Scimitars against the Dark by Kuntz/Baur. Reimagining the Al-Qadim setting as "dark Arabia," inspired by the tales of Tanith Lee, H.P. Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith.

Good stuff.

I recommend running a Dark Ravenlofty Al'Qadim vs Al Qadim in ravenloft. I.e. no dark powers, no special. ravenloft rules (except maybe fear, horror, madness). CNG has it's own corruption for necromancers mechanic btw.


If you're running with PFRPG, check out Kobold Design's 10 Arabian Adventures, and their upcoming Southlands.

Excellent! But just one question by "Complete Necromancer Guide" you mean the "Complete book of Necromancers"? I've googled CNG and I get none that matches the name.