Quoth the Raven and themes.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

In addition, this thread was intended to discuss possible themes for this year's Quoth the Raven. We've gotten a little off topic. If we'd like to talk about morality, compassion, ethics, and their relation to in-game morality or real world issues, then I think it would be best (and less confusing) if someone started a separate thread for that.

What he said...

[Kadarin]

In addition, this thread was intended to discuss possible themes for this year's Quoth the Raven. We've gotten a little off topic. If we'd like to talk about morality, compassion, ethics, and their relation to in-game morality or real world issues, then I think it would be best (and less confusing) if someone started a separate thread for that.

What he said...

Just to get flamed...
What about a QtR just about this –

morality, compassion, ethics

– of course, in-game. And in a nice way. And without shooting at one another *ducks quickly behind the nearest fire-proof rock*
k.

[Dark Angel]

In addition, this thread was intended to discuss possible themes for this year's Quoth the Raven. We've gotten a little off topic. If we'd like to talk about morality, compassion, ethics, and their relation to in-game morality or real world issues, then I think it would be best (and less confusing) if someone started a separate thread for that.

What he said...

Just to get flamed...
What about a QtR just about this –

morality, compassion, ethics

– of course, in-game. And in a nice way. And without shooting at one another *ducks quickly behind the nearest fire-proof rock*
k.

With the potential tie in of love/passion? Is there an overarching concept or term to tie it all together? A 'What pushes us to do what we do' kind of thing?

[High Priest Mikhal]

With the potential tie in of love/passion? Is there an overarching concept or term to tie it all together? A 'What pushes us to do what we do' kind of thing?

The general idea was explored in Exemplars of Evil, even how noble emotions could be twisted and perverted to dark ends. But the majority of it focuses on specific villains rather than on really saying much about how emotions and motives can turn someone to a dark path beyond a paragraph or two. Perhaps a theme of "Psychology of Evil?" Where the reasons behind what an NPC does are explored more in depth than just a backstory?

[Kadarin]

That was not really what I was aiming at, but well...
There also could be twisted, perverted and dark peronalities turned to noble...
and then, of course, since we’re in Ravenloft, get even more twisted &c
Or not.

I just thought of having “emotions” as a general theme. But I like your ideas – let’s see what Scs and the DPs make of it.

And why do we not ask Dru? She probably knows more ‘bout emotions than all of us together... On second thought, let’s not ask her.

k.

[alhoon]

Not quite. Close, though.

A sociopath--I assume you mean a violent sociopath

Well, not really. A person doesn't have to be violent to be a sociopath.

They also understand right and wrong, they just don't care. That's what makes them Evil.

I agree with that, yes. So, mindless creatures like skeletons or constructs are IMO, neutral.
What I disagree with is ...

Now, all that being said, I've seen DMs take the view that only beings of a more simplistic, less nuanced mindset can have a morally Neutral alignment. They say that humans have a greater complexity to their motivations than animals, constructs, or outsiders. While I don't necessarily think this is the best way to approach the system, I think that viewpoint might work better in Ravenloft than it does anywhere else.

All the power to them, but I don't personally like this point of view and wouldn't use it in my games because I use neutrality as "less good and less evil" area. Someone that's not good but not bad either. He does enough things that are wrong to not be considered good but nothing terrible.
The monk that routinely withholds spare food and prefers to see the food rot than give it to the poor child while it's obvious the child will die of starvation soon enough is evil. The monk that withholds food to a hungry-but-not-obviously-dying child, knowing a tough winter is coming so that he won't have to do with smaller food portions is neutral though; he has a better reason to withhold food but it's not like he would be seriously harmed if he spared some food for the hungry child; he would be inconvenienced. The other one IMO, is as guilty as if he had took out a knife and stabbed the kid.

Let's be clear: we're discussing in-game morality, not real world morality.

Even MORE specific I would dare say! We're discussing in-game morality for Ravenloft, whether it should be in a Gothic point of view of absolute Good and Evil... or not.


And of course, I'm speaking for the suggested theme of QtR "Morality, compassion, ethics, love and passion"

But seriously, that would be a nice theme. "Is really Toben the Many evil? Or is it his nature as it's the nature of a forest fire to burn you if you stand in the way?"

[Zilfer]

Villager 1 with a large smile: Hey did you hear what happened to bob?
Villager 2 with a similar large smile: Didn't he have a run in with Ivan?
Villager 1: Yeah but the fool sought him out!
Villager 2: Now why would he want to do that?
Villager 1: He heard about the "living flame" and wanted to be one!
Villager 2:Ha! who gave him that idea?
Villager 1: Well I did of course, i Just left out the part that living flames only last about a minute!
Villager 2: Heh well it's too bad poor bob didn't have a bunch of lives maybe he could stretch the time to two minutes.

*Both of the villager's turn their wicked smile towards the party as suddenly flaming bodies of toben zombies come bursting in just at the right time to complete the deadly joke*

[Zilfer]

I don't suppose the theme.... "Jokes gone bad" has been used for a QtR.... i can just imagine all the toben jokes...... ah the glorious book of toben...


Wow i just had a thought what if there was an NPC that was trying to gather all of Toben's Jokes into a large sort of master piece? O.O'

[Jimsolo]

I think that 'Morality and Ethics' and 'Emotions' might be too broad of topics. The last few QTR issues have been pretty specific. Maybe picking one specific emotion? (Anger, jealousy, passion, regret, or my personal favorite-love.) Or one specific facet of the alignment grid? (Although if you did that, you'd have to give all four/five an issue eventually.)

[High Priest Mikhal]

I think that 'Morality and Ethics' and 'Emotions' might be too broad of topics. The last few QTR issues have been pretty specific. Maybe picking one specific emotion? (Anger, jealousy, passion, regret, or my personal favorite-love.) Or one specific facet of the alignment grid? (Although if you did that, you'd have to give all four/five an issue eventually.)

Maybe not alignment, that's too subjective even in D&D.

Also, agreed. "Emotions" is probably too broad, but one emotion may be too narrow. One key emotion with room to work in others sounds like it could work well.

[Dark Angel]

I think that 'Morality and Ethics' and 'Emotions' might be too broad of topics. The last few QTR issues have been pretty specific. Maybe picking one specific emotion? (Anger, jealousy, passion, regret, or my personal favorite-love.) Or one specific facet of the alignment grid? (Although if you did that, you'd have to give all four/five an issue eventually.)

Maybe not alignment, that's too subjective even in D&D.

Also, agreed. "Emotions" is probably too broad, but one emotion may be too narrow. One key emotion with room to work in others sounds like it could work well.

Would love work when tied in with passion and (when tastefully done) lust? Working all angles (within reason, we don't need a dating guide for the refined gentleman of Dementlieu) and that should be enough content for an issue, yeah?

[Jimsolo]

Yeah, that was part of the reason I was so gung-ho about 'love' as a topic in the first place. It's a pretty broad umbrella that incorporates lots of related topics like jealousy, lust, and family.

[A G Thing]

And betrayal Jimsolo... Don't forget that love like any reason for a close relationship can lead to betrayal.

[Jimsolo]

Oooh, yeah! Betrayal! Definite bonus.

[divinedragonslayer]

My personal vote goes to hags for a theme. I know there was a 2E book done on hags, but I'd love to see what others do with them.