Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
- Gonzoron of the FoS
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Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
So I backed myself into a small corner last session. The Players found a Fraternity of Shadows signet ring and asked Lord Balfour about it, since they'd seen one on his finger. He tried to brush it off saying it was the symbol of his fraternity (true, though misleading). But then they pushed him for a name of the fraternity, and I said he would answer them, but I didn't have a name handy and I'd provide one later.
Obviously, he's not going to say "The Fraternity of Shadows" but he'll give a false name (either made up on the fly, or a standard alias for the FoS). But what would it be?
In the real world, are there any fraternities that don't use Greek letters for their names? I looked to French fraternities, since Dementlieu is based on France, hoping that the usual French reluctance to adopt outside language influences would prevail, but nope, they seem to use greek letters too, according to wikipedia.
The only analogues of Greece that I know of in Ravenloft are the Gnomes, as presented in Domains of Dread, and maybe Vechor (though the ε on their heads may be the only proof of that), and possibly Demise. So, what would be the "Greek" language of Ravenloft? Vechorite? Doesn't seem to fit, based on the NS Gaz description of Vechorite as a group of wide ranging dialects with barely a written language. Also, the history/culture of Vechor doesn't have the connotation of "classical learning" that real-world Greece does, so why would academics adopt such an obscure language for their societies? But then, there's that epsilon on the Vechorites' heads, perhaps the only real sighting of a Greek letter in Ravenloft, so who knows?
I would imagine that Darkonese (i.e. the Latin analgoue) would be used as more of a "scholar's language", as the University of Il Aluk was there, and as Latin is used in the real world. Which might lend credence to using the Gnomish language for Greek, since they are located there primarily. But Gnomes are kind of silly and goofy and don't have the gravitas of Socrates or Plato, etc.
So, do I just go with something as obvious as Phi-Omega-Sigma, either calling them Vechorite or Gnomish letters? Or is there some other construction I can use that sidesteps the Greek issue.
Maybe something French like, Le Fraternité de ____?? Or just stick with English: The Fraternal Order of the ____???___. Beyond that, what's a good "cover name" for the FoS that doesn't mention Shadows and set off everyone's evil detector? Did anyone in our netbooks ever use such a name that I missed?
Obviously, he's not going to say "The Fraternity of Shadows" but he'll give a false name (either made up on the fly, or a standard alias for the FoS). But what would it be?
In the real world, are there any fraternities that don't use Greek letters for their names? I looked to French fraternities, since Dementlieu is based on France, hoping that the usual French reluctance to adopt outside language influences would prevail, but nope, they seem to use greek letters too, according to wikipedia.
The only analogues of Greece that I know of in Ravenloft are the Gnomes, as presented in Domains of Dread, and maybe Vechor (though the ε on their heads may be the only proof of that), and possibly Demise. So, what would be the "Greek" language of Ravenloft? Vechorite? Doesn't seem to fit, based on the NS Gaz description of Vechorite as a group of wide ranging dialects with barely a written language. Also, the history/culture of Vechor doesn't have the connotation of "classical learning" that real-world Greece does, so why would academics adopt such an obscure language for their societies? But then, there's that epsilon on the Vechorites' heads, perhaps the only real sighting of a Greek letter in Ravenloft, so who knows?
I would imagine that Darkonese (i.e. the Latin analgoue) would be used as more of a "scholar's language", as the University of Il Aluk was there, and as Latin is used in the real world. Which might lend credence to using the Gnomish language for Greek, since they are located there primarily. But Gnomes are kind of silly and goofy and don't have the gravitas of Socrates or Plato, etc.
So, do I just go with something as obvious as Phi-Omega-Sigma, either calling them Vechorite or Gnomish letters? Or is there some other construction I can use that sidesteps the Greek issue.
Maybe something French like, Le Fraternité de ____?? Or just stick with English: The Fraternal Order of the ____???___. Beyond that, what's a good "cover name" for the FoS that doesn't mention Shadows and set off everyone's evil detector? Did anyone in our netbooks ever use such a name that I missed?
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- The Giamarga
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
So, Fraternity of Shadows. Why Shadows you ask? Hmmm... I'm stumped on that oneRotipher wrote:The in-game Fraternity of Shadows doesn't actually try to conceal its existence from the world -- only its covert evildoings -- so it does have an official insignia: a snake biting its tail. You can see it (minus the images inside the circles) on our netbooks' covers, as well as on this and other moderators' posts. When used in magical FoS rings, it'd surround a pitch black gemstone.
And what is their official agenda? A scholastic brotherhood to be sure, scientific research etc...
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Hmm... even if Rotipher is right, as she usually is , I can't imagine them using that name. It's really ominous, no?The Giamarga wrote:So, Fraternity of Shadows. Why Shadows you ask? Hmmm... I'm stumped on that one
Yeah, sure, that's a fine cover story, but you wouldn't name a group like that the Fraternity of Shadows would you? I mean, yeah, OK, for the Knights of the Shadows it works, since they are heroes hidden in the shadows. But the nature of scholars and science doesn't really work if they hide in the shadows, does it? That, and the seemingly innocuous "the" actually goes a long way to show that the Knights are in the shadows, and not that they are shadows themselves, which is the image that the Fraternity calls to me. The Fraternity of the Shadows would sound less ominous, but I can't use that because now it sounds like a parody or splinter group of the Knights.And what is their official agenda? A scholastic brotherhood to be sure, scientific research etc...
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Draconic is the international language of scholars, so it's more likely to be the one to donate letters.
Rather than a fraternity, the image you should be thinking of is more like a gentleman's club for scholars. Less keg party, more whiskey and cigars in overstuffed armchairs. The Fraternity could muddy the waters by actually meeting in a club as well.
Details are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman%27s_club
List of potentially inspiring names here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lo ... %27s_clubs
And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ge ... aternities
There's also the Diogenes Club from Sherlock Holmes (which actually is pretty close to how the FoS could function at times).
The Hellfire Club could also provide some inspiration, as, like a lot of clubs, it has a popular name ("Hellfire Club") and an official one ("Order of the Friars of St Francis"). The FoS could be its official or unofficial name.
If you're worried about why someone would join a Fraternity of Shadows, think about why someone might join the Hellfire Club.
Rather than a fraternity, the image you should be thinking of is more like a gentleman's club for scholars. Less keg party, more whiskey and cigars in overstuffed armchairs. The Fraternity could muddy the waters by actually meeting in a club as well.
Details are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman%27s_club
List of potentially inspiring names here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lo ... %27s_clubs
And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ge ... aternities
There's also the Diogenes Club from Sherlock Holmes (which actually is pretty close to how the FoS could function at times).
The Hellfire Club could also provide some inspiration, as, like a lot of clubs, it has a popular name ("Hellfire Club") and an official one ("Order of the Friars of St Francis"). The FoS could be its official or unofficial name.
If you're worried about why someone would join a Fraternity of Shadows, think about why someone might join the Hellfire Club.
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Hey Ron I’m surprise you didn’t play it off like they were a group like Knights of shadow. A Underground of scholars that try and find out things about shady going ons. (I mean it’s a part lie but not 100% lying) They want to find out more about ravenloft, and they don’t always have the best methods about it, but they try to find out quite a bit. I’m sure you could spin it that way if you wanted.
Imagine if he ‘let them in’ on this secret order and then have them sent on a mission for him? Of course this is tiptoeing towards them eventually finding out. Is your goal for them to never find this out while playing up to cannon? If so they why even have it as a possibility at all?
As for names…. All I have to say on the subject is…. My main character’s in my DnD game is Zilfer “Lord of Shadowdale”(this one’s not my fault, *shakes fist at players*) and he’s based off my original character from a story I’m writing where he’s called “Zilfer of Shadows”. Top that off since I’ve given up avoiding it since fate has conspired against me; I am going “Shadowblade” with him now. So.. yeah Shadow isn’t realy ominous to me. Especially when “Knights of Shadow” are around. Unless the players, metagaming I think I personally wouldn’t have a hard time trusting balfour. *shrugs*
Just my two copper pieces.
Imagine if he ‘let them in’ on this secret order and then have them sent on a mission for him? Of course this is tiptoeing towards them eventually finding out. Is your goal for them to never find this out while playing up to cannon? If so they why even have it as a possibility at all?
As for names…. All I have to say on the subject is…. My main character’s in my DnD game is Zilfer “Lord of Shadowdale”(this one’s not my fault, *shakes fist at players*) and he’s based off my original character from a story I’m writing where he’s called “Zilfer of Shadows”. Top that off since I’ve given up avoiding it since fate has conspired against me; I am going “Shadowblade” with him now. So.. yeah Shadow isn’t realy ominous to me. Especially when “Knights of Shadow” are around. Unless the players, metagaming I think I personally wouldn’t have a hard time trusting balfour. *shrugs*
Just my two copper pieces.
- Nathan of the FoS
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Well, the idea that I used when I wrote the article (*ahem*) is that "shadow" is used in the way it is in the allegory of Plato's cave. What we (that is, the FoS) observe through our five senses is the "shadow" of the real, metaphysical world; the dichotomy isn't "light and shadow", it's "mind and shadow". You can probably make a great deal of metaphysical guff along those lines that will be so boring to your players that they'll beg off knowing anything more about it, or the Fraternity that de Casteelle belongs to where they sit around and talk about that kind of stuff all. day. long.Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:Yeah, sure, that's a fine cover story, but you wouldn't name a group like that the Fraternity of Shadows would you?
There's also a potential implication of "searching the shadows and bringing knowledge to light".
Finally--I've found this difficult to portray in-game, but part of the reason that the Fraternity of Shadows doesn't have a secret name is that, for the majority of its members (again, in my write-up, which is not canon), it really is a group of academics and scholars dedicated to studying the Demiplane. The metaphysical conceits and world-dominating aims are revealed only gradually as one ascends in the hierarchy. De Casteelle obviously knows the whole story, but you could perfectly well meet a low-ranking FoS member who thinks of it and participates in it as a purely academic and philosophical organization.
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Nathan of the FoS wrote:Well, the idea that I used when I wrote the article (*ahem*) is that "shadow" is used in the way it is in the allegory of Plato's cave. What we (that is, the FoS) observe through our five senses is the "shadow" of the real, metaphysical world; the dichotomy isn't "light and shadow", it's "mind and shadow". You can probably make a great deal of metaphysical guff along those lines that will be so boring to your players that they'll beg off knowing anything more about it, or the Fraternity that de Casteelle belongs to where they sit around and talk about that kind of stuff all. day. long.Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:Yeah, sure, that's a fine cover story, but you wouldn't name a group like that the Fraternity of Shadows would you?
I love it! Great idea!
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
You could also go for the Jungian idea of the shadow as things that are unknown, repressed or hidden.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)
The FoS is fundamentally attempting to do what Jung was doing, and peel back the denial of the waking world to get at the real structures underneath.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)
The FoS is fundamentally attempting to do what Jung was doing, and peel back the denial of the waking world to get at the real structures underneath.
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Good point. Anyone know of a Draconic alphabet?Ryan Naylor wrote:Draconic is the international language of scholars, so it's more likely to be the one to donate letters.
Precisely the concept I have. Not a modern Frat, but a more period-appropriate version.Rather than a fraternity, the image you should be thinking of is more like a gentleman's club for scholars.
Whoa! The Hellfire Club existed outside of X-men? Mind. Blown.The Hellfire Club could also provide some inspiration, as, like a lot of clubs, it has a popular name ("Hellfire Club") and an official one ("Order of the Friars of St Francis").
Nathan's points are compelling (and I admit I probably should have checked the article first. ) Been a while since I've read it. But here's the situation that I didn't elaborate fully: The PCs are a suspicious lot at the best of times, and are extremely suspicious of Balfour at this moment, due to how they got the ring in question.
1. Balfour sends them on a mission to find some goods stolen from him
2. Along the way, they get scryed upon, and when they confront the scryers, are threatened and told in no uncertain terms to drop the investigation and get out of town.
3. Ignoring the threats, they proceed.
4. They are attacked by 4 wizards, who focus on illusion/shadow magic to delay them. (shadow mask, invisibiltiy, rainbow pattern, major image, Binding Darkness)
5. When they defend themselves with lethal force, the wizards respond in kind.
6. The PCs win, but the bodies of the wizards teleport away via contingency spell, though not before the PCs managed to snag one of their rings.
7. They go to return the stolen goods to Balfour, but end up confronting him about the ring that matches his, and his involvement.
So at this point, he's trying to alleviate suspicion and distance himself from the attack. So getting into a discussion of how "My evil-sounding organization isn't really so evil sounding, because it's about metaphysical shadow and totes isn't about shadow magic, (even though you know I'm a powerful wizard myself)." isn't really going to fly.
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
"Rogue elements within my organisation have stolen my stuff and are doing naughty things.
I, and the rest of my group, disapprove heartily." ?
I, and the rest of my group, disapprove heartily." ?
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleges_o ... _of_Oxford
The Colleges of Oxford are called Houses and their Fellows could easily be considered a Fraternity?
The Colleges of Oxford are called Houses and their Fellows could easily be considered a Fraternity?
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
This might work. In fact, it might even be the truth. Why did de Casteelle hire them to get the stuff back? Did he arrange to have them waylaid? If he did, why? If he didn't, why did Fraternity members interfere with the retrieval? Is a rival Fraternity faction at work?Ryan Naylor wrote:"Rogue elements within my organisation have stolen my stuff and are doing naughty things.
I, and the rest of my group, disapprove heartily." ?
Alternatively, he could say (well, at this point, it's probably "could have said") "Wow, those creeps must have mugged one of my fraternity brothers for his ring to impersonate my very upstanding organization! It's a good thing you killed them, the punks. Wait 'til I get to the bottom of this!"
Anyway. What you wanted was a name, and perhaps it's time I suggested a few. The Fraternity of Seekers in Shadow, abbreviated to Fraternity of Seekers? The Arcane Brotherhood? The Fraternite des Ombres (it's French! and therefore...less sinister?...maybe?)? How does he sign his letter to the WF twins in VRA? He has some Latin tag line I forget. You could do something based on that.
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- Gonzoron of the FoS
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Heh. When I explain everything specific to my campaign, eyes glaze over at the wall of text and few people respond. When I try to generalize my question, keep things short and sweet, and remove the campaign-specifics, then everyone wants to know the details. Such is life.Nathan of the FoS wrote:This might work. In fact, it might even be the truth. Why did de Casteelle hire them to get the stuff back? Did he arrange to have them waylaid? If he did, why? If he didn't, why did Fraternity members interfere with the retrieval? Is a rival Fraternity faction at work?Ryan Naylor wrote:"Rogue elements within my organisation have stolen my stuff and are doing naughty things.
I, and the rest of my group, disapprove heartily." ?
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His exact words were something like, "It pains me that one our distinguished organization would be involved in such things,
but the organization is an ancient one, with many members. I do not know them all, and wouldn't have the first clue as to which of them would try to hinder you."
If I used this one, my awful pronunciation would be mistaken for "Fraternity de Hombres," which would be a very different club.Anyway. What you wanted was a name, and perhaps it's time I suggested a few. The Fraternity of Seekers in Shadow, abbreviated to Fraternity of Seekers? The Arcane Brotherhood? The Fraternite des Ombres (it's French! and therefore...less sinister?...maybe?)?
"Ex umbra Lumen eruditionis prodentes" I cast that as the motto of the University, but we've discussed it before as a possible FoS motto:How does he sign his letter to the WF twins in VRA? He has some Latin tag line I forget. You could do something based on that.
http://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/vi ... f=1&t=6834
Thanks for all the offered ideas, but I think I hit upon what I need in the shower today: The Fraternal Order of the Onyx Ouroboros. What do you think? Doesn't give away any intentions. Clearly matches with the Ring, and sounds pretty innocuous, I think.
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- The Giamarga
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
So with that motto we can establish:
Use latin not draconic
The fraternity of shadows is perhaps a derogatory term referring to "umbra" from the universities motto.
Use latin not draconic
The fraternity of shadows is perhaps a derogatory term referring to "umbra" from the universities motto.
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Re: Names of Fraternities in Ravenloft
Actually, we've established in the past that Darkonese and Draconic are both represented by Latin. So that's... helpful.
There are presumably structural differences between the two.
There are presumably structural differences between the two.