Transposition by Angel?

Discussing all things Ravenloft
User avatar
Hazgarn
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:17 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by Hazgarn »

Ryan Naylor wrote:
Hazgarn wrote:Here's a thought, though. If celestials really are that disruptive of the planar fabric of Ravenloft, would it even be possible for a Ravenloft native to survive transposition?

I'd think even if they could, then the resulting effects on the environment around the subject of the transposition would be a red flag that something "evil" was going on... Which could potentially be a very interesting plot hook.
That's what I was saying earlier.
Ah. I likely either missed it or forgot. It's been a pretty involved discussion, and memory kind of sucks. :oops:
Deranged Comics Fan
Strife-monger
Daughter of a Troll
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8907
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by alhoon »

OF course, there's the main problem of what is "good". In D&D canon, it's good to bash evil beasties and use a special thing that it's not exactly poison, but a substance that kills evil people if it enters their system.
If it seems weird, it's because it's supposed to be a fun game where your players get off work and spend a few hours away from their problems and annoying customers and have their characters bash evil beasties and use poison without moral dilemas.

In that regard, it may be actually "good" in your Ravenloft for angels to transpose with unwilling people. After all, there's a special heaven (I don't remember which) where the good-doers as their eternal reward, remain blissful and happy and Without free will or personality, all their needs taken care off by their LGood God, and they spend eternity enjoying their eternal reward. Like eternally happy potatoes. :? And that God is LG.
In that regard, if such "Goodness" exists in your world, I can see the pure angels transposing with unaware people (which is like abduction). They just give them their eternal reward a bit earlier after all. They're not pro-free will.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
High Priest Mikhal
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:48 pm
Gender: Male
Location: It's dark and I hear laughing.

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Ryan Naylor wrote:
High Priest Mikhal wrote:One of the main reasons I disagree with transposition by celestial is mostly mechanical. Evil attracts evil in Ravenloft; powers checks, fiendish reality wrinkles vs. celestial disruptions, that sort of thing. Therefore it makes no sense that a celestial would answer a failed powers check because it doesn't call out to them.


I don't think anyone's suggesting that (or at least, I'm not). The idea is that extreme good actions could attract a celestial in something like a transposition, not evil ones.
And again, I reiterate that good does not attract much (positive) attention in Ravenloft. Even if a celestial did connect the sacrifice made by transposition is nothing short of the ultimate--okay, now that does make sense. Granted I can only see Innocents being given this kind of attention; only souls utterly free from the taint of evil would be worthy of such, IMO. Anyone else is just not pure enough to break through the barriers that keep even the powers (gods) out.
"Money is the root of all evil...I think I need more money."
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

I could imagine a celestial entity doing such a thing, given a willing Innocent host who knows what's going on and accepts the "blessing". I could also picture such a transposition occurring if a living body is, in some irreversible way, emptied of its original consciousness -- say, extracted by the Apparatus or sucked dry by a soul-devouring monster -- thus leaving the "vessel" open for occupation. I don't think it's something that ought to happen often, but at least it's a possibility; indeed, if the transposed celestial has to forfeit its true shape and much of its powers, it might make for an interesting story to have PCs encounter someone who says they're an angel, and be left wondering if they're the genuine article or just another deluded Lost One.

Alternately, angelic beings might already be an established presence in Ravenloft; they just aren't readily recognizable as such. What if Mist Hounds and similar mysterious, spooky-yet-benign monsters are actually minor celestials, who've made their way into the Land of Mists to help the unfortunate residents of the demiplane, but find their powers severely curtailed while they're there? Transposing with an animal -- say, a big, loyal, protective dog -- would be a more-ethical alternative to taking over a sentient being's body, and a lot more discreet than some glowing winged figure wandering around. It might even allow them to mask their presence from darklords somewhat, if their giveaway auras of Goodness are subsumed in the True Neutral aura of the host creature.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
A G Thing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:41 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Currently the Frozen Wastes of Mount Pleasant Michigan

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by A G Thing »

Just to highlight on my opinion on Angelic Transposition I agree that angels should be able to transpossess with mortals in Ravenloft though it would require certain circumstances depending upon who and why (Like Roti said!). It should also be exceedingly rare and limited in scope in a lot of ways but it could be an excellent story telling option and it could introduce both Gothic and inhuman elements into the story which while good may also be horrifying. It may even be hard on the mortal involved. Just a lot of potential as I see it.

Alhoon...
I get what you are saying about angels being unable to kill to provide mercy in that sense or to save others by taking the lives of innocents. I even agree that is what a true angel should do and when running such an angel and not one who is at risk of falling in that context you and I are in total agreement. And also just because I am framing my arguments from the context of them being in serious situations I want to state that I also agree that the simple folk who act as your grandfather (Sounds like a wonderful man! Thank you for sharing! I am honored! :D) are similar to how I tend to run angels outside of those situations as well. Flaming sword angels are easy to fall into using but then again that is an aspect of them that need not be ignored completely. The angel or fiend is often more effective if it is in the background just guiding so I get that. But occasionally even those in the background are forced to step into such intense situations and your responses are the moral ones I expected. Sometimes in order to do good it is not to solve the problem completely but to do your best and angels should embody this aspect and the strength of the struggle to be good even when things are hard. However while I agree this is how they should act and such I believe their circumstances and reasons for being exemplars are not so absolute that they are unable to change if the circumstances are extreme enough. Not often does one fall or even consider a dark thought, but I consider it must be possible or else they would not truly be free. It is just how I see it.

Ryan Naylor...
I will send you a PM. I think my side of the discussion has become more philosophical with you because I a wondering a few key things so I think I need to move it off this post and I hope that you care to respond.
"There is only one true answer to any and every question. The rest are just vagaries and obfuscations."
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8907
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by alhoon »

As you said AGT. :) IMC angels and fiends are not completely free.
As for the flaming sword angel, yeap, I use those too. I don't remember ever using one in Ravenloft but I have them in Ravenloft never the less. If the circumstances warranteed it, I would use one such angel. Perhaps as a plot device or something; I.e. the 4th lvl PCs free the big angel and he takes care of the "menace" somewhere that the PCs were never intended to interact with or something.

Back to angel transposition and "empty" bodies, I would say that the transposing angel would be more interested to just bring the original soul back to the body instead of changing places.

Roti: We are on the same page about angels and bodies and I also think the idea of "transposing with an animal" is cool, but hard to pull. How does a dog's soul connect through the planes with an angel? Still, too cool to NOT use it.
It has everything needed though for a hound archon to enter Ravenloft. It shows the angel has absolute humility (he doesn't think transposing with a dog is dishonorable) and in dire circumstances, he could assume his dogman form.

It also breaks from the "pet cemetary" tradition of evil in the form of animals. :) The suspiciously smart dog, shadowing the PCs, that they are CERTAIN in Ravenloft to consider an evil thing is actually... an angel!

To think, I had used a good wolf creature in a Ravenloft campaign, that actually COULD teleport without error (but wasn't good in a fight) and has told the PCs that he can cure lycanthropy so they shouldn't be afraid to confront the wererats.
You solved a mystery in my campaign as of "what is this wolf actually that can talk, teleport, heal and never commits violence?"
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
Jimsolo
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by Jimsolo »

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:I could imagine a celestial entity doing such a thing, given a willing Innocent host who knows what's going on and accepts the "blessing". I could also picture such a transposition occurring if a living body is, in some irreversible way, emptied of its original consciousness -- say, extracted by the Apparatus or sucked dry by a soul-devouring monster -- thus leaving the "vessel" open for occupation. I don't think it's something that ought to happen often, but at least it's a possibility; indeed, if the transposed celestial has to forfeit its true shape and much of its powers, it might make for an interesting story to have PCs encounter someone who says they're an angel, and be left wondering if they're the genuine article or just another deluded Lost One.
I think I like this idea best, but that's just me. It gives you that sense of paranoia that I think comes with Ravenloft, and it allows you a greater leeway as a DM with the 'angel's' actions. (Since it's always possible that they aren't an angel and never were...) It keeps your options as a DM open, and anything that keeps me from writing myself into a corner is always a good idea.
User avatar
Gonzoron of the FoS
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 7576
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:02 pm
Gender: Male
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Wow... lots of great posts in the past couple of days. I'm not going to try to respond to everything, but I'll pick a few points here and there.
alhoon wrote:Guys, we're not trying to form a canon here, we don't have to agree. The way I see it we have various oppinions. That's a good thing.
Yup, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, alhoon, or your perfect angel concept. It's certainly a valid interpretation. I happen to disagree with it, but as you and Ryan and others have said, if it works for you in your game, that's fine, and good. (For the newcomers in the thread, this is generally the kind of discussion we like to have here, and it is generally the way things go. I think the old-timers can confirm that there's not a lot of "your idea is wrongbadfun" around here. At least, we try not to encourage that sort of argument.)
The angel would NOT be able to kill the infant Vecna. Why? Because he can't make an evil action for the greater good. He just can't strike down and kill a baby. That it will later become an evil God is irrelevant. At the present, it's just an innocent baby.
Is it the right choice? Nope. It's a stupid choise. But it's the good choice.
A bit of gray helps extend the average lifespan of the material plane. But for angels, the average lifespan is NOT the point of being.
PS. an angel with the opportunity to cut down a baby, actually has more options than "kill" or "let him be evil incarnate". The angel can actually take the baby and rise it as a good person.
Sometimes, yes, there will be another way available, and I was a bit flippant with my quick attempt at a moral conflict, but without getting too lost in the details to come up with a forced example, choices exist where one of the choices is the lesser of two evils. It's my contention that a realistic being of pure good will see the greater good and take that path, even if on the face of things, doing so involves what usually seems to be an evil act. It's not for expedience or self-preservation, but because the angel sees the big picture in a way humans can't always. Of course, this is why it's possible (in my mind) for an angel to fall, because if it's capable of doing these things for the right reasons, it could end up doing them for the wrong reasons.

I realized that I've said a lot in this thread about what I don't think angels are like, but not a lot about what I do think they are like. I agree with the idea that extraplanar creatures are the living embodiment of a concept. Like fire elementals are made of purer fire than any fire made on the material plane, Angels are made of purer good than any good person born on any earth. But like elemental fire can combine with elemental air to make elemental smoke, elemental good can be tainted by elemental evil. I look at it somewhat like the Shadow Fey are described in VRGttSF. They are all one race, and can change slowly from one breed to another if their interests change. But when they are an Alven, for example, that's what they are. That's all they are, through and through. When an angel is an angel, it's pure angel. But if an Alven starts to feel Fir-ish or Brag-ish, it becomes that breed over time. An angel that becomes a "jerk" starts to drift from being an angel and become something else over time. (we've used a different word than "jerk" in this thread, but probably shouldn't due to the grandma rule. When I have time, I'll go back and censor them.)

I mentioned earlier that my upbringing may be a factor here. I promise not to go all religious here, but over the past two days, my family has been celebrating the Rosh Hashanah holiday, and one of the prayers recited on that holiday includes the following passage: "The angels, gripped by fear and trembling, declare in awe: This is the Day of Judgment, for even the hosts of heaven are judged, as all who dwell on earth stand arrayed before You." This year, when I read that, I thought of this thread, of course. :) Why would the angels be judged if they were infallibly good? So whether this view of angels is consistent with D&D canon or not, it's the way I'll always think of it, and I recognize that it may just be me, and others will see it differently.

But regardless of anyone's religious views or lack thereof, I think everyone is familiar with the age old theological question: "If an omnipotent, benevolent god exists, why would it allow bad things happen to good people?" If sickness, disease, violence, and untimely death all happen in the real world, let alone a D&D world, where good gods are a proven truth, doesn't it establish that some good can come from bad things and vice versa? Now, in D&D (and many real-world cultures), you've got the existence of evil gods working against the good ones to explain this somewhat. But it doesn't seem such a stretch to me that killing baby Vecna could be an ultimately good act, and that angel could do it. (OK, OK, one more data point from Judaism: Angel of Death, Exodus. Look it up. ;) ) In short: God is a jerk sometimes. Ergo, an angel could be too.
A G Thing wrote:Their alignments in 3.5 tend to read "Always Lawful Good" or "Always Chaotic Good" or "Always Neutral Good"..
It should be pointed out that "always" doesn't mean always, according to the 3e books. Quoting from the MMII, because I have it handy, but I think the same or similar is in MMI as well: "Always: The creature is born with the given alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for such individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or one-in-a-million exceptions."
Ryan Naylor wrote:This is the way I see angels as being able to operate in Ravenloft: by providing a little word of advice here, a helpful piece of equipment there, a bit of encouragement over there. All from the guise of normal, everyday people. If you were the Dark Powers (which, as a GM, you are), you’d see they were a blazing presence manipulating events quietly for good, but to the people of the world, they’re indistinguishable from normal (good) people.
I can accept that kind of angel in Ravenloft, but I don't know that the angels themselves would consider that sort of behavior to be "pure good." A being incapable of lying would at least find deceit and living in hiding to be distasteful. It's making the best of a difficult situation, to be sure, and probably the smart move, but is it compromising the sort of behavior befitting an exemplar of good? I'm not saying such an angel is truly "fallen," but once they start compromising, letting humans do the heavy lifting, perhaps getting killed in the process, while the angel stays safely behind the scenes, I'd argue they aren't 100% pure anymore. Perhaps in order to best fit the setting the "Dark Powers" (i.e. the DM) has to enforce this sort of low-key behavior on all extraplanars with a decree like the Unseen Pact. But a Justice Archon watching from Celestia (if he were able to do so, which he's not) wouldn't approve.

Your spin on the Abominations is a nice one, but a retcon, IMHO. Carnival is pretty clear in the out of character sidebar, I think. "Pacali believes Isolde shapes the Abominations herself; the Skurra believe she simply withdraws her protection from the ravages of the Twisting. The latter is closer to the truth..." "Their bodies represent what happens when Isolde permits the unfiltered chaos of the Twisting to run its course" and "Abominations feel little more than mindless rage." But as alhoon points out, whether torturing an evil creature is in fact evil or good depends on what theory of good and evil you use.

I get that some may consider fallen angels to be an easy or lazy choice for a writer/DM. But is it any different than using a vampire? or necromancer? or flesh golem? Aren't all these tropes already done to death, in Ravenloft and elsewhere? In a way, yes. But they are overused because they are good. They work, to convey a certain feeling, to use the shorthand of common experience. They are tools in a toolbox, as far as I'm concerned. You use the one that works for the story you want to tell, whether you're the first to use it or the thousandth.



Another thought that occurred to me since my last visit to the thread: We've talked about how an angelic transposession would be a bit kinder and gentler than a fiendish one in terms of the toll on the host's body. (and if it wasn't, then the angel wouldn't be "good," but a jerk.) I'm not so sure about that now. Especially in the context of "gothic" and the 19th century, not everyone believed that serving good was pain-free. Many sects preached self-infliction of discomfort or pain as a way to be closer to the divine. Look up "cilice" or "hairshirt," for an example. Fasting, flagellation, mortification, vows of silence, poverty, celibacy. I could see someone thinking of even a fiendish transpossession as just an extreme form of stigmata. If Ravenloft celestials follow gothic motifs, this kind of painful transformation could still be considered "good."
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
User avatar
A G Thing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:41 pm
Gender: Female
Location: Currently the Frozen Wastes of Mount Pleasant Michigan

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by A G Thing »

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:
A G Thing wrote:Their alignments in 3.5 tend to read "Always Lawful Good" or "Always Chaotic Good" or "Always Neutral Good"..
It should be pointed out that "always" doesn't mean always, according to the 3e books. Quoting from the MMII, because I have it handy, but I think the same or similar is in MMI as well: "Always: The creature is born with the given alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for such individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or one-in-a-million exceptions."
Hey Gonzoron... Yeah I know it is that way but I guess I should have clarified that I was using it to highlight that they are equal parts dedicated to Good and an Alignment as parts of their nature for the majority of them. I find that more often the fallen fall from their ethical failings rather than just a twisting of their good impulses.

Also I agree with your comments and your ideas are great in explaining a lot of your points or offering ideas. Comparing them to a fey or elemental is a great way of explaining a reason for having such a flexibility to their nature even if they are not exactly the same. I also had the same idea before you posted that angelic transposition might be painful or hard, and I even wondered if it would be viewed as a holy thing or more often mistaken as fiendish possession. I just had not posted it yet so you beat me to it.

Anyways... Still I wonder however since fiends gain a phylactery when they enter Ravenloft what would an Angelic being get to tie their existence if anything? Are they at risk of death when they finally fully manifest? Are they perhaps tied even stricter or bound further or do they have the same mobility as other outsiders in Ravenloft?
"There is only one true answer to any and every question. The rest are just vagaries and obfuscations."
Ryan Naylor
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:55 pm

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Phylacteries: yes. Isolde's is her sword.
User avatar
Hazgarn
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:17 am
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by Hazgarn »

An idea about transposing in general: To whatever degree angels and demons are "inherently" their alignments, the act of transposing through a mortal could hypothetically open them up to a greater potential to corruption one way or another. Because the mortal they are transposing isn't inherently anything. In Ravenloft, even an Innocent can be corrupted to evil, and even the most stained individual has the potential for redemption, and I feel the pull that eventually binds the outsider to Ravenloft could easily become a trap in more ways than one.
Deranged Comics Fan
Strife-monger
Daughter of a Troll
User avatar
High Priest Mikhal
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:48 pm
Gender: Male
Location: It's dark and I hear laughing.

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Ryan Naylor wrote:Phylacteries: yes. Isolde's is her sword.
Perfect example of how phylacteries for good and evil outsiders tend to be poetic in their form as opposed to utilitarian for liches (Azalin's was changed into its current form, so he's the exception). It relates to some aspect of their character so some thought is warranted in what form it will take.
"Money is the root of all evil...I think I need more money."
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8907
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by alhoon »

Hazgarn wrote: even the most stained individual has the potential for redemption,
Well, Darklords are IIRC said to be proved to be beyond redemption.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
High Priest Mikhal
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:48 pm
Gender: Male
Location: It's dark and I hear laughing.

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

alhoon wrote:
Hazgarn wrote: even the most stained individual has the potential for redemption,
Well, Darklords are IIRC said to be proved to be beyond redemption.
They haven't been proven to be beyond redemption, but they're so blind to their own moral failures they've never been redeemed. It's possible but unlikely (Nathan Timothy and Lord Soth weren't redeemed, but they were released from their imprisonment; Vecna escaped his in one of the worst plots ever devised by the writers).
"Money is the root of all evil...I think I need more money."
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8907
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: Transposition by Angel?

Post by alhoon »

High Priest Mikhal wrote: Vecna escaped his in one of the worst plots ever devised by the writers).
Actually Vecna being trapped in Ravenloft, along with his buddy Kas on the other side of the border was a bad idea IMO. I never liked it. I didn't make sense and in essense, the domain was unplayable anyway. It was like a little piece of hell with completely subjucated people and if you went out of the road, you died. And Vecna knew everything anyways. And he was a freaking deity. So much for the unspoken pact.

Azalin and Darkon feel Vecna's role of the omniknowledgable and nearly indestructible distant ruler far, far better.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
Post Reply