Hazlik and the spellplague- did he win?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Well, I can't speak for Ryan or alhoon, but I don't see anything here other than different takes on a character's motivation. Unless someone objects, carry on....

[Ryan Naylor]

A G Thing: No offense taken, don't worry.

Alhoon: I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think being evil (even to darklord level evil) necessarily precludes being able to love. It just suggests that they have an inconsistent or compartmentalised view of the world. People are often inconsistent or muddled in their views. Gonzoron's point about the Nazi is exactly right: a racist can love their families but hate people of a particular race. They might even hate Jews/blacks/homosexuals/gypsies/whatever in general, but make exceptions for ones they know personally. Have a look at Hannah Arendt's stuff on the banality of evil or just about anything set in Nazi Germany, Rwanda or the Deep South.

If you don't agree, that's fine, but I think you're underestimating the human capacity for self-deception and inconsistency.

[Ryan Naylor]

A G Thing again: Again, this is just a difference of opinion in how we see Hazlik (and the best way to torment him).

First and most simply, I think the undead/reborn vengeful beloved thing has been overdone. It's everywhere. I'd like something a bit more creative.

Eleni doesn't need to come back to torment Hazlik, because she can live on in his nightmares. A dream-Eleni would be as effective, if not more so, at tormenting him, because as a projection of his own mind, she can really hit him where it hurts, and he can't get away from her. This is the hook of Hazlik's character - he is unable to lie to himself, because his dreams can torment him with the truth.

Whereas, a reborn Eleni or a ghost Eleni, particularly one that's actively out for revenge, has to be out of sight for a decent proportion of the time. If she's a dream, he can't lie to himself about her. If she's still around, he might be able to say "OK, she hates me now, but together we did great things. And at least she survives in some form." Perhaps her hating him, but continuing on - while still allowing the genocide - is the hit he's prepared to take?

If you go with the idea that nothing much is going to change in Hazlan - that they'll rebuild along the old lines, just inverted, it's even worse for Hazlik - not only did he sacrifice his daughter, it was for nothing. The new ways are just the same as the old.

Also, it's made worse because Hazlik knows what it's like to be betrayed by someone he loves (Ordiab). This time, though, he's in Ordiab's role, and Eleni is in his. The hypocrisy is incredible. Have fun with your subconscious identifying you with the people you've hated for all these years. You've already mentioned this of course, but I thought it bears repeating.


Basically, the question is, which is going to give you better adventures/storytelling? I think it's more interesting as psychological horror, whereas you prefer a more supernatural horror. Or you think having her still around keeps him in the hook, whereas I think it lets him off.

[A G Thing]

Thanks for explaining Ryan Naylor! Glad I did not offend you!

Thanks to your explanation I can see more clearly on how you thought about this and I can now even agree that both have their pluses and minuses.

It is just a sort of dichotomy of sorts in how the dark powers could torment him that seems to divide the approaches. Do they let him deny it all except in his dreams as he coasts otherwise through his rule by simply again letting things get done with minimum involvement while he is wrapped up in his own problems? Or do they give him chances to not just see but realize how he is actually crafting the very culture around him that he will grow to despise so much that he ignores or tolerates it so he can focus on what he needs to do to get his revenge?

One shuts him away from the world to suffer alone and become misanthropic in his self pity and misdirected hatred even as relative peace decays slowly around him as he does only the least needed to secure himself in his goals. The other seems to keep him running to keep the doors of his little room closed from invasion of other concerns that remind him of what is wrong forcing him to retreat or make harsh choices so as to maintain the few slipping goals he has left growing his rage all the more as the structure slips beneath his feet!

I could even see running either or for different effects and both now seem to fit together a bit as we have explained them here! (to at least my mind...) Both could work with little change to the rest of Hazlik or Hazlan after the ritual and the catastrophe.

I am even beginning to see more how they could both maybe be used at the same time!!! Rumors of Eleni's return that could range from her being vengeful to just in peril could drive Hazlik back and forth all over both sides of this torment. Imagine after the ritual the body vanished and Hazlik somehow got lucky enough to reform in another body that took his pendant. He hears rumors of Eleni living or clues that are very vague but still meaningful to her whereabouts every once in a while. None of them are ever really her but for the time he becomes convinced of their authenticity! He fixes or deals with his people even using them to find out if it is really her or some plot or such and in doing so strengthens his position to be sure but also makes his people worse. His efforts slowed and hindered both by problems and phantoms faced both in the day and night. The problems in his dreams cannot be ultimately avoided but the paranoia and problems of his realm can be solved but never to satisfaction. Each of these feeding off the other rocketing him from manic highs to depressive lows. Still nothing definitive for the problems that truly nag him gets done while his petty revenge attempts slowly make head way!

Still maybe even in those nightmares she is there taunting him or another time pleading for his help as he also is tortured by the other sins of the past and the results of his attempted genocide. Since he has become the same as the thing he hates (Or worse even!) maybe he is now through his own mental breakdown subconsciously getting revenge on himself? He both wants to avoid saving her or fighting her not because he can convince himself but because he can't trust his own motives anymore and it all ends in a falsehood that brings no closure. He is back to shutting it out but even that reminds him that he shut out his feelings before and that led to this!

All the while Eleni is really still gone... Rumors are just rumors... Rebels are not led by the girl. She only appears to torment him in his dreams. Screams for help mixed with rage never letting him have more than doubt.

Realistically while I guess I favored the fantasy horror in my ideas before I also love to mess with the psyche and that was also why I wanted to talk about this. Perhaps you have further insights into mixing them together your way since I think both kinds of horror can be used together to great effect!

[alhoon]

OH GODS I DID IT AGAIN!

My netiquette is terrible! I really thought that was clear that it is all an opinion!

Did I attack him in some way?

Really Alhoon and Ryan and everyone... Sorry if I got carried away...

Eh... nope, you didn't attack anyone as far as I can see. It seems your netiquette is actually very good. I didn't mean to imply you attacked our opinions or something, I just wanted to tell you that if that works that way in your campaign, it's all good. More like the old argument "if you have fun playing it that way, you play it right".

A G Thing: No offense taken, don't worry.

Alhoon: I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think being evil (even to darklord level evil) necessarily precludes being able to love. It just suggests that they have an inconsistent or compartmentalised view of the world.

If you don't agree, that's fine, but I think you're underestimating the human capacity for self-deception and inconsistency.

Yeah, good examples those.
So, if you want to extrapolate, you would consider that Azalin actually loves Irik and wants him to be evil to better secure his future etc? Or Azalin wants Irik to be an image of himself so he and his ideas would live on?
And I would actually add here that Azalin is definetely not human, since he's ... undead.

If you go with the idea that nothing much is going to change in Hazlan - that they'll rebuild along the old lines, just inverted, it's even worse for Hazlik - not only did he sacrifice his daughter, it was for nothing. The new ways are just the same as the old.

Well, I don't particularly see him as a visionary that wants to kill the Mulan for being cruel to Rashemani, I see him as someone that has no problem at all with the old ways but doesn't like his own people, the lot of them, for what a group of them did to him like 50 years ago.

[Ryan Naylor]

So, if you want to extrapolate, you would consider that Azalin actually loves Irik and wants him to be evil to better secure his future etc? Or Azalin wants Irik to be an image of himself so he and his ideas would live on?
And I would actually add here that Azalin is definetely not human, since he's ... undead.

Yes, we agree that Azalin is definitely not human.

I don't think Azalin does love Irik. At least, not in the same way that I imagine Hazlik loves Eleni or Jacqueline Renier is capable of loving Henri DuBois. It's more that he wants Irik to be an image of himself, because Azalin thinks that's the only way to be a ruler. I suppose there must be some love in there, or having to execute Irik wouldn't torment him as much as it does: if he didn't, in some small measure, love his son, he wouldn't be so disappointed in him and his "weakness". I think primarily though, in Azalin's case, it's pride. His way is the only way; his seed should be a strong seed.

Likewise Strahd is obsessed with Tatyana, but doesn't actually love her. It's based purely on what she represents for him, and not anything to do with her as a person.

So not all the darklords are capable of love.

Well, I don't particularly see him as a visionary that wants to kill the Mulan for being cruel to Rashemani, I see him as someone that has no problem at all with the old ways but doesn't like his own people, the lot of them, for what a group of them did to him like 50 years ago.

Very true. I was just responding to one of the points A G Thing had made. Hazlik is a genocidal maniac, but it stems from humiliation, bitterness and rage, not any desire to help the Rashemani. (How's that for disproportionate revenge?) You'll notice in Gaz I, it says Hazlik and Eleni bonded over a mutual hatred of the Mulan, not a mutual desire to improve the lot of the Rashemani.

[A G Thing]

First... Thank you as well Alhoon!

Now back to the conversation!

To both Alhoon and Ryan...

True he does not care about them much, but he still needs to use them for his goals and he needs to make them do the majority of the work as he cannot spend his time enslaving each of them and still get his revenge. Basically he needs tools and he also would not want those tools to remind him of what he hates every time he uses them. In Gaz I he has accepted he is stuck there but is building toward a future of having someone take over his revenge. Hard to do if after a ritual you kill everyone in power and everyone left hates you or you forcefully try to enslave them. If he plans to keep going after the ritual he has to have some way to get a successor and thus the Rashimani seem the only choice. He may not love them but he needs to use them so you figure he would try to rule over them as much as everything else in his life! With just enough effort to get them to his side. He may not help them much but he does not actively harm them either. He also enjoys the comfort this provides him allowing him to more easily dismiss the torments of his past and he has even found good things in it through Eleni.

Really I often wonder at what the false history of Hazlan is because that could help Hazlik a lot or hurt him when the time comes after the ritual. Guess I need to reread Gaz 1 again but are there any other places clues to it might be?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Eleni doesn't need to come back to torment Hazlik, because she can live on in his nightmares. A dream-Eleni would be as effective, if not more so, at tormenting him, because as a projection of his own mind, she can really hit him where it hurts, and he can't get away from her. This is the hook of Hazlik's character - he is unable to lie to himself, because his dreams can torment him with the truth.

Alternatively, instead of being tormented by her in his dreams (which has also been used a lot with other darklords), perhaps the fact that he's literally hijacked Eleni's brain could come back to haunt him. The woman's own thoughts and feelings and memories had occupied that brain for a lot longer than his, after all: even if he's booted out her consciousness, there could easily be a residue of her vanished identity -- bits of Eleni's personality, fragments of her former emotions, scraps of fears and doubts and hopes -- lodged so deeply in her neural pathways that Hazlik's own consciousness keeps having flashes of "Eleni-ness" cropping up in the midst of his own thoughts and feelings. Not a full-fledged conscious presence -- too much of her has been expunged for that -- but enough to plague him with the realization that she'd cared for him more than anyone else alive, and had the potential to be a far greater Red Wizard than him, had he not robbed her of the chance to prove herself as his apprentice and heir.

[Ryan Naylor]

Which darklords are tormented in their dreams other than Hazlik?

[Zilfer]

I think (could be wrong) that Strahd is haunted in his dreams of finding Tatyana. I know Godefroy's night's are "nightmares" but i guess it's not really dreaming now is it? XD

To a previous poster, I think Strahd loves Tatyana on some level I do see your point that he loves the representation of youth within her as well. So curious does anyone think maybe one day he'll instead of trying to obtain her himself, try instead to obtain her youth? Convincing himself it's the only way he can 'have' her? *shrugs*

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

To a previous poster, I think Strahd loves Tatyana on some level

Thing is, he barely knew her. His brother brought her to court, and he immediately coveted her. It was never mutual in any way. He just lusted after her, and was jealous that he'd frittered his years away on war and governing, while his little upstart brother gets "all the nice things". Lust (and jealousy) at first sight. Not any real love, IMHO. Even in his own biased perspective, as seen in I, Strahd, he totally objectifies and idealizes her, never really seeing her as a whole person.

I do see your point that he loves the representation of youth within her as well. So curious does anyone think maybe one day he'll instead of trying to obtain her himself, try instead to obtain her youth? Convincing himself it's the only way he can 'have' her? *shrugs*

Sure... I could see that... maybe even some horrible spell to de-age himself by draining her youth. Then he'll be young and attractive for her next incarnation. (of course the dark powers would find a way to make this backfire. maybe allowing him to age from that point so he's back to his normal old self when she reincarnates again.) In my view of him, he'd rationalize hurting her as a means to the end. (Again, I don't think one could do such a think to someone whom they truly love, getting back to the Hazlik/Eleni point)

YMMV, but that's how I read the Strahd/Tatyana relationship.

[Zilfer]

Aha, so i'm going to trust the expert on this, but the way I read the story from the tome of strahd. (i realize it's probably slanted and I don't know the whole story, probably more revealed in other books/sources) I was under the impression he developed it over time of her being there. Gives me a slightly new take on strahd for I imagined he had at least a sliver of humanity left. If what your saying is indeed the case then wow. xD

[Manofevil]

Why don't you get them stuck in the same body...and YELLING at each other. Wait, that was a Steve Martin movie, wasn't it?

[alhoon]

Azalin:
Yeah, I think Azalin's reaction was more of a "my heir SHOULD obey me and be like me" mor than anything else. His sadness and reaction to his failure to make Irik evil, is just because he failed in something he deemed so important: To bring up his heir like his image.
However on the other Hand, I would say that Azalin did love his kingdom, or at least was loyal to them. He has suffered much trying to get back, not just because of the comfort of being king, since he was made king of Darkon.
On the other hand, Azalin's knowledge that Darkon is in fact "fake" kinda spoils his relation with his new kingdom, although he pretends to be adjusting to the situation. Although if it's hard for an 80 years old man or woman to change preconceptions about this or that, for someone that is 5 centuries old AND a lich on top of that, would be harder still.
Still, I see him as "somewhat loyal" to Darkon, although he has wounded his kingdom terribly and doesn't seem to regret it. It's more like "Duh... cursed darked powers I spent 5 years with the mental capacity of a goldfish while my idiot lieutenants and barons were so incompetent that couldn't even take over the kingdom" than "Wooops. I blew up my capital, brought Death and the horsemen and seriously weakened my kingdom. Perhaps Demi-lichdom wasn't that good an idea"

Strahd: I agree with the notion that Strahd never really loved Tatyana. As Azalin in the old SotK site once said "It's the DPowers playing for 4 centuries on Strahd's midlife crisis".
No "I study war so my kids will study mathematics and art" for him. It was more "Damn! I lost too much taking over Barovia! Time to catch up"
The Tatyanas through time are similar in appearance, not that similar in life experiences/personality. Yet, he covets them all the same.

Gives me a slightly new take on strahd for I imagined he had at least a sliver of humanity left. If what your saying is indeed the case then wow. xD

Yeah, he refers to that when he talks about Azalin and how more or less "Yeah, OK, we're both undead, but I'm less undead that him. Seriously! I lust over a girl for the last couple of centuries, so I'm less undead. Liches are all about "empty continuance". Vampires on the other hand are so less undead than that!"

[Rotipher of the FoS]

To a previous poster, I think Strahd loves Tatyana on some level

Thing is, he barely knew her. His brother brought her to court, and he immediately coveted her. It was never mutual in any way. He just lusted after her, and was jealous that he'd frittered his years away on war and governing, while his little upstart brother gets "all the nice things". Lust (and jealousy) at first sight. Not any real love, IMHO. Even in his own biased perspective, as seen in I, Strahd, he totally objectifies and idealizes her, never really seeing her as a whole person.

YMMV, but that's how I read the Strahd/Tatyana relationship.

The worst thing about Strahd's fall, IMO, isn't that he never really loved or knew Tatyana. It's that he really did love Sergei, yet allowed his envious obsession with an objectified image of Tatyana to poison that sincere brotherly affection.


For other darklords who suffer torment in their dreams, Elena Faith-hold is a prime example.