The Saw in Ravenloft

[Jack the Reaper]

I have recently been (accidently) exposed to the Saw films, and though finding them too gory and repulsive for my taste, I was impressed by the peculiar outlook and psychology of the Jigsaw murderer. He is not just some maniac madman, but rather believes he's doing people favor by making them better appreciate their lives and fix their flaws. His traps and "games" however are nothing but (geniously) fiendish.

In an In Nomine game, Jigsaw could have been a perfect example of an Habbalite - fallen angels who punish humans cruelly for their flaws, while deluding themselves all the time that they actually do God's will.
Did anyone ever make use of elements from the Saw in a RL campaign, or have any ideas how to do it? Though beeing a splatter-horror type, it has enough psychological and moral issues in it to fit into the gothic mood of RL. What do you say?

[HuManBing]

I seem to recall that some of the philosophies of Epicurus emphasized enjoyment as the absence of suffering. Later interpretations took this to mean pleasure from the cessation of suffering. So, if you cause somebody suffering and then stop the punishment, the theory goes they'll start to enjoy their normal pre-punishment lives more.

Forgotten Realms has a deity, Loviatar, which also emphasizes pleasure as the absence of suffering. I know this purely from the Nightmare Lands boxed set, which had one character as a priestess of Loviatar, and her primary function (aside from standing around showing lots of skin) was to "help" people in distress and suffering. Except her "help" consisted of whippings, physical torture, and mental and emotional abuse. Much for the same aim - to make somebody feel worse about their condition, so that when you stop, they feel better by definition.

[Jack the Reaper]

Forgotten Realms has a deity, Loviatar, which also emphasizes pleasure as the absence of suffering. I know this purely from the Nightmare Lands boxed set, which had one character as a priestess of Loviatar.

The Nightmare Lands? I Know there is Narana, the priestess of Loviatar, who is one of Davion the Mad's "aspects". But she appears in the Book of Crypts and in Domains of Dread, not in the Nightmare Lands boxed set, as far as I remember.

Anyway, the Saw's method is much more sophisticated than simply torturing people and then stop. He puts them in complicated traps, where the only way to survive is by some severe self mutilation, or by killing somebody else (though in some cases there's a way to survive intact, if you are clever enough to discover it). It makes people do terrible things in order to save their lives, thus making them aware how much they actually appreciate life. It also checks their morality when it comes to sacrifice somebody else for survival.

I think it could be used in Dominia, maybe combined with the "Dungeon" advenure idea I posted here in the past. The PCs can awake without memories in a set of rooms in Dominia, and they must survive deadly "games" and riddles conducted by the good doctor. Or maybe Elena Faith-Hold or one of her disciples develops methods to examine people's morality and purity of soul. It may start with a crueler version of the pit and pendulum, and proceed to even more fiendish trials...

[Brandi]

I think it could be used in Dominia, maybe combined with the "Dungeon" advenure idea I posted here in the past. The PCs can awake without memories in a set of rooms in Dominia, and they must survive deadly "games" and riddles conducted by the good doctor.

"Death therapy, Bob-- guaranteed cure!"

[The Lesser Evil]

Hmm, well, I'm not familiar with the films at all, but it sounds like you're kinda dipping into the ol' suffering is the way to salvation or even cult of matyrdom sort of thing. Basically "tough love" on steroids- by going through these horrible ordeals of suffering, the torment will be their salvation, forcing them to become better people. I could see this working with a priest, scholar, or other high up led astray by a matyrdom complex or some such- extended how he was delivered to "enlightenment" by enforcing the same cruelties he endured himself. If the villain died, perhaps his resolve, as it is, caused him to rise again from the grave. If so, i think the Inquisitor (an undead monster from the Forgotten Realms, IIRC) might make for an appropriate monstrous version of this character.

If you wanted to draw some real life examples, I believe in the middle ages many of those who tortured witches for confessions didn't do it for the knowledge that the alleged witches were witches (they were usually pretty sure by this time) but rather they thought it was needed to purify the witch's soul (along with burning at the stake sometimes). These were then standards of purification for those in really dire straights, and so in a way a very twisted and misguised sense of pseudo-kindness. Of course, I wouldn't doubt there would be plenty of sadists in these inquisitions who didn't believe in any of this garbage and just enjoyed having justification for being cruel.

Another, more modern and non-religious example may be the ideological interment or labor camps set in place by many dictators. Take the Chinese Cultural Revolution in the 1960s and 70s- scholars and dissidents are sent away for "the good of everyone" to learn the basic ways of peaceful peasant life. Or they may get falsely accused of mental disorders and locked away in sanitariums.

A potential in-Ravenloft example might be Francois De Penible (from COTN: Demons) who condemns the luxuries of the aristocracy.

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However, after becoming more fed up and frustrated with their decadence, he eventually goes a little bit bonkers and starts enjoying torment for its own sake, eventually performing rituals to become a kyton.

You could extend that adventure to draw out what you might want for your idea here, me thinks.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

One possible motive I could see for a Jigsaw-inspired villain, unique to the Ravenloft setting, would be if an occult scholar were to puzzle out (or think he's puzzled out) what the Dark Powers are up to. If he concludes that they're testing evil-doers' capacity to reform, then punishing the ones who fail, he might conclude that if he does the same to captured villains, he'll either ascend to DP status himself (a good option if he's nuts), or succeed in freeing the ones who pass their tests of character, thus beating the system and finding a way to free people from the Land of Mists (if he's a sympathetic figure and/or an outlander desperate to escape).

Of course, as he's not powerful enough to go after the setting's heavy-duty villains, he'd make do with victims who've committed lesser, run-of-the-mill offenses. Con artists, town officials who take bribes, verbally-abusive parents and the like would be appropriate targets: people whose offenses are worthy of contempt, but not sufficient to make the players think they deserve what the Jigsaw-analog does to them.

[Zilfer]

All i can hear is....

"I want to play a game."

xD Ironic for a DnD table eh? There are quite a bit of interesting entries here, that I may borrow for my game as well.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

The concept of Saw makes me feel horribly angry, I have to admit. *sigh* I think that in D&D, the real test of morality would be for the survivors of the death maze when they find the equivalent of Jigsaw. Do they kill him outright? Do they shove him into his own torture devices until he's torn apart?


Make a deathmaze that's a Domain. The adventurers unwillingly enter and have to endure the indignities and horrors of the traps, then finally (some of them) come face to face with their tormentor, who congratulates them and does not lift a finger.
Regardless whether they let him live or kill him, he is the deathmaze's Darklord; he can not leave.
If the adventurers try to take him outside and get him to the authorities, he just puffs into Mist in their hands once they go out the door -- which slams shut behind them, leaving them unable to re-enter the maze and bring this maniac to justice. If the DM is feeling generous, their injuries and mutilations may heal at an accelerated pace over the next days.
If the adventurers just kill him outright, show them the door but don't heal their wounds. If they go darkside, for instance by stuffing the unresisting man into his own devices or torturing him their own way, they fail the test -- and can never leave. Over time, they devolve into creatures like the Pathfinder system's Sinspawn, or they transform into new traps, forced to exist forever, knowing they have become part of the horror they did so much to escape from.

[Jack the Reaper]

Well, if the Saw makes you angry, I suppose it makes him an excellent villain/darklord - that's the point of them, isn't it?...

I liked your idea, but I don't think it's appropriate to punish the PCs so much for putting the madman inside his own torture device. It actually looks like a fair justice to me - killers are sentenced to death, and torturers are sentenced to torture. Even if this position is controversial, I think that such an act wouldn't count as a terrible sin, or warrant a severe powers-check. It would be very understable after all they suffered from his hands, so even if you don't justify them, you should excuse them. At least, this is my opinion.
(BTW, where are those "sinspawn" you mentioned described?)

An alternative way to make a moral issue about "Jigsaw"'s fate, is to make the consequences of his killing problematic from other aspects. Maybe killing him will somehow bring about the deaths of some innocents, or maybe he has innocent family or friends that would be critically harmed by his death, etc. Would you let him live (and keep on his "work") in order to spare them?...

[Rock of the Fraternity]

But there lies the rub, doesn't it? What makes doing such horrible things to anyone excusable, when you will not excuse them being done to you? Remember, this is Ravenloft; judgment of your actions are guaranteed to be harsh.

The Sinspawn are described in the Pathfinder Bestiary, part 2.

[The Lesser Evil]

Going with the deathmaze idea, maybe this type of villain could be an ancient dead forced to reside in what is essentially its own tomb or mausoleum? It may have a second purpose to its existence in finding gullible suckers to replace its lordship and allow it to rest by forcing it through its own torturous devices once its prospective replacements confront it.

[Jack the Reaper]

But there lies the rub, doesn't it? What makes doing such horrible things to anyone excusable, when you will not excuse them being done to you?

Well, the fact that you are doing them to the very same person who has done them to you (or to others) first; it's like the difference between killing an innocent and executing a convicted murderer. Justice doesn't look only on the act, but also on the circumstances and intentions around it.

[Hey, I'm writing a ph.d dissertation on the philosophy of ethics, I know what I'm talking about! ]

[Rock of the Fraternity]

But how much of what the Dark Powers do is what we would call truly justice?

[The Lesser Evil]

But there lies the rub, doesn't it? What makes doing such horrible things to anyone excusable, when you will not excuse them being done to you?

Well, the fact that you are doing them to the very same person who has done them to you (or to others) first; it's like the difference between killing an innocent and executing a convicted murderer. Justice doesn't look only on the act, but also on the circumstances and intentions around it.

[Hey, I'm writing a ph.d dissertation on the philosophy of ethics, I know what I'm talking about! ]

Well, to be fair, Ravenloft's power check system does allow for the difference between Sadistically Torturing (or even Routine Torturing) an evil character/monster and an innocent. So you're right, there is some wiggle room for context there. However, doesn't make it a justifiable or even excusable act. It might mitigate it or make it more understandable, but it doesn't make it a good or even neutral act. Nobody can "cause" you to act out on your wants to torture somebody, you're still responsible for that action.

Furthermore, torturing somebody in such a fashion doesn't achieve anything besides vengeance. While executing an evil enough murderer serves the preventative function of the killer committing such heinous crimes in the future, torture does not have that luxury. It is, from the gothic mystique Ravenloft is built around, simply the acting out of base impulses for revenge. There are rules against cruel and unusual punishment for a reason.

Furthermore, the dissonance caused by inflicting such torture on others can negatively impact those who perform the acts- there's a reason why even executioners can feel the weight of their occupations and want to "depersonalize" executions, as it were- inflicting harm on others takes a psychological toll. Fostering an environment where retributive torture is excused fosters a nesting ground for sadists- those who thrive on the justified torture.

So yes, there may be some difference between torturing an innocent and torturing a torturer. However, that does not mean it's not an evil act.

[Jack the Reaper]

Furthermore, torturing somebody in such a fashion doesn't achieve anything besides vengeance. While executing an evil enough murderer serves the preventative function of the killer committing such heinous crimes in the future, torture does not have that luxury. It is, from the gothic mystique Ravenloft is built around, simply the acting out of base impulses for revenge.

Vengeance itself can be a manifestation of justice, when done properly; after all, we have angels of vengeance, and all kinds of dark "avengers" in literature and media, which are usually considered the good (though dark) guys.

I don't think that capital punishment is only a utilitarian matter of preventing the murderer from killing again. There are some people who have done so much evil, that justice demands to get them punished, even if they won't cause more harm anyway. Think about all those old Nazis who get captured and sentenced nowadays, some of whom even get executed. I think we have a strong intuition that it is definitely right and justified. If an old, senile Adolf Hitler would be discovered hiding in some remote village in Brazil, I don't think anyone will be content with just imprisoning him.