The Kargatane in Book of Vile Darkness 4th ed

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Is it possible that acknowledging the events of the 3rd Edition would require some royalties/honorariums to White Wolf that they don't want to give? Isn't it kinda like why Soth was changed to The Black Rose, and Hazlik's Thayvian connections were eliminated? I don't know all the legal ramifications, but I have my suspicions that this is part of it.

[Jester of the FoS]

I doubt WotC would have licensed the product line without retaining all rights to characters. I think it's more a matter of just not caring to check.

[Zilfer]

If so that is rather unforunate.

[alhoon]

Or perhaps they presented Kargatane in the mid-Azalin absence years.

[Goose Bone]

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Isn't it kinda like why Soth was changed to The Black Rose, and Hazlik's Thayvian connections were eliminated?

- Why there's no official 4.0E Ravenloft Campaign Setting?
- Why there's no oficial 4.0E Spelljammer Campaign Setting?
- And few other interesting questions...

I'm not sure about it, but I think the answer to this questions may be pretty simple...

- I think that 4.0E simply doesn't support the idea of Multiversum...
Sure, there's Sigil - but fact it could be placed anywhere doesnt mea'n It actually IS everywhere... Correct me but I think that there's no 4th edition book talking clearly about existing of D&D Multiverse...

I may be wrong of course;)

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Not so much that it doesn't support it, at least from a rules perspective, moreso that the products don't reference it much, if at all. There's definitely a sense that the world you play in is THE WORLD, and while there are other planes connected to it (there was a 4e manual of the planes, after all), they seem to be used more as alternate realities of THE WORLD than conduits to other worlds. The Shadowfell in particular seems to be a place for dark reflections of the world you play in, not a Ravenloft-ish melting pot of the dark reflections of different worlds. At least from the little I've seen, it seems like plane-hopping adventures are meant as brief journeys away from home into weirdness and back. not from home, through weirdness, to someone else's home.

But this all makes sense if their goal is to bring in new players. Us old grognards who obsess over the details of years of convoluted backstory aren't the target market for these things. So they strip them down to their basics and aim for function for new players. It's much like what DC comics did recently with their "new 52" reboot of all their titles. Comics fans are aging and drifting away, so they give new fans something they can dive right into without having to do an hour of research. Strahd's writeup in Open Grave doesn't say where Barovia is. This lets a DM plunk it down anywhere in his campaign. Rather than a tapestry, they give building blocks.

For people who loved the tapestry, like me and many of us, this stinks. But it makes total sense, sadly. Whether it worked or not to bring in new players is another story, but from a strategy point of view, I see now where they wanted to go.

[Rudolf Weathermay]

I see what you mean Gonzoron and it makes sense. If they can bring in new players and have a new generation players they win more than just keeping it as it was just to keep the old fans happy. a pity but understandable.

It's funny how many years of reading, playing and dreaming of this wonderful (read dreaded) place keeps people bussy. How we old school fans react if we see things that are not "realistic" with the setting just like someone did some kind of heresy

For me I lost my heart in the misty domains as it is (for me) the most fantastic setting ever made. So it hurts a bit to read about those changes.

damnd , i think i have to go to bed lol, i'm becoming melodramatic

[Goose Bone]

Rather than a tapestry, they give building blocks.

Coming soon.

I think its good to make world a little bit simplier for unadvanced players, but (re)creating whole world as a bucket of universal, everywhere-fitting, colourfull and simply-shaped blocks looks like a bad (mist)way for me:/ D&D is not simply a "toy", I think... Or at least not a toy, that could be change so careless... It's similar to situation when some strange (elder?) god comes to the humans and say - "Yo fellas, I think all your childrens born since this moment will be born as a sahuagins. I know u dont like sahuagins, but I think your childrens will be much happier as this creatures... I like sahuagins anyway... Maby u should try to like them too..."
(Please dont misunderstood my point, I love 4.0E, but the thing they do with planes, multiversum and so on, simply wasnt good...)

[alhoon]

OK, the above post repaired my damaged mood.

Besides that, I agree with Gonzoron. Sadly, we're drifting towards being "relics of the past". The Semi-senile grumpy old men and women with the walking stick that sit in the sun remembering the good old days and batting grandchildren with said walking stick if they make too much noise when they play in the garden.

PS as for other planes, we have the new Elemental chaos that houses a lot of the planes of old and the new astral pla- I mean sea that houses a bunch of the old Outer planes.

[Jack the Reaper]

The Semi-senile grumpy old men and women with the walking stick that sit in the sun remembering the good old days and batting grandchildren with said walking stick if they make too much noise when they play in the garden.

Yes, something like that:

250px-StatlerAndWaldorf.jpg (17.19 KiB) Viewed 3144 times

[Rudolf Weathermay]

Sadly, we're drifting towards being "relics of the past". The Semi-senile grumpy old men and women with the walking stick.

I'm only 31 and I really start to feel me this way with this current situation

My cousin who is 20 years old started playing Dungeons and Dragons when he was 12 years old. He was annoying me to ask to play D&D when he was 7 years old every time I saw him and that was very much. After 5 years I could not stand it anymore and I gave him a chance to prove himself. To be honest, he was pretty good and mature for his age, so he played about 1 year in my group. For personal reasons he quitted and now after years he told me a month ago he found his own group he's going to lead. 4'th edition ofcourse.

I'm happy to see young people start with D&D, but I confess I have difficulties not telling him tips etc. for a good campaign. just like the old fool who is telling about those long lost days, and how to handle lil' practical problems

[Goose Bone]

Sadly, we're drifting towards being "relics of the past". The Semi-senile grumpy old men and women with the walking stick.

But... I'm only 24... I don't wanna be an ancient dead o.O

Of course I know, that theres a lot on new, great options - and in the end DM may simply use the 2 or 3E cosmology if he/she think it will fit better to his/her campaign... But it's pretty sad that "next generations" wont know what the Great Wheel was:[ More. The next generations wont even know what "arcanoloth" was...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

D&D is not simply a "toy", I think... Or at least not a toy, that could be change so careless...

But it is, isn't it?

What I mean is that from the very beginning, DM's have picked and chosen what they like, drawn inspiration from everywhere, and made every campaign different. Personally, I DM Ravenloft because I like having the huge detailed backdrop to fall back on when I am lacking inspiration. But lots of people, even back in the 1e, 2e, 3e days liked to use their own worlds and make things up as they go along. It's funny because Ravenloft started as a much more "cut and paste" setting than others, (land of starvation next to the breadbasket of the Core, anyone?) and it was a long time and a lot of work on the parts of many authors to smooth it into an interconnected world. But for a DM who's not playing "Ravenloft" but playing his own world, which is more useful, a detailed political struggle like the Treaty of the Four Towers vs. Falkovnia or a Secret Society of vampire wanna-bes operating from THE Shadowfell, which can easily become THIS DM's Shadowfell?

And I see it from the other side too. I happen to love the Pathfinder rules, and there's a lot of cool stuff in their Ustalav setting that I can grab and plug into Ravenloft. But I don't care much about the Ustalav setting itself, so the less entangled stuff is with the Whispering Tyrant and the Shining Crusade, the better it is for me.

[Blot]

D&D is not simply a "toy", I think... Or at least not a toy, that could be change so careless...

But it is, isn't it?

Very much so!

A toy is something to be 'played' with.

I think that 'play' as an effective learning methodology is something that's marginalised in the current social climate. There's an essay in that somewhere, but I'll be buggered if I could be bothered to write it...

[Strahdsbuddy]

While I am old-school when it comes to Ravenloft, I think saying I'm "only" 33 is as good an indicator as any that I've been around the gaming industry longer than some of the new target audience has been living. In that time I have enjoyed devouring source material for this setting, and I now realize I use that pile of information to completely mess with canon. I have to say, modularity and customization are the two main draws to RPGs. With a few lucky rolls, a major villain could be killed early on, and if you don't have the flexibility to work around that you could be in big trouble. The wild thing about Ravenloft is that despite the piles and piles of source material, the whole world changes the moment you turn a new bunch of PCs loose in it. It is a toy, and you and your players determine what kind...together.