Wheel of Time Book 11 (and other books)

[alhoon]

Well, taken isolated sounds a bit more far the way than I intended it. I like Jordan's style. I just prefer Brandon's.

Yeah, I found New Spring jarring too, but mainly because Moiraine and Siuan were so young in the first place. I don't know if I missed some stuff in the early books, but from reading the main series, I always imagined that those two were much older. Maybe not old for an Aes Sedai, like Cadsuane, but not total n00bs.

Yeap. You have missed some stuff. Say, when Siuan is stilled and seems a very young woman after that. Or when it's mentioned that Siuan achieved the Amyrlin seat in record time, of a few years in the shawl and also she has been Amyrlin Seat for a few years too. Or the part that Moraine mentions she's cousin of King Laman, that was killed in the Aiel war 20 years ago, and cousin to Tigraine who was a bit older than Morgase. So Moraine's age was actually well placed in the mid 40s since book 2 I think.

Few Aes Sedai according to the books reach past 250 years any more. That's why the Kin's longevity brought such a shock.
Cadsuane was considered a legend mainly because she was alive for over 4 centuries.

Also, again according to the books, 20 years on the shawl isn't total n00b*. It's "somewhat young". Still, if you check in the book you'll find out that several Aes Sedai that are emissaries or advisors or have prominent places in the world are Aes Sedai for a few decades. Only sitters are usually considered from those 100 years old or so. Elaida became Sitter in less than 25 years in the shawl BTW, so in her late 30s/early 40s.

* Cadsuane disagrees.

Asha'man on the other hand, seem to advance FAR[ more quickly. In the time the Black Tower exists a novice would still be novice. Yet, there are dozens of full Asha'man.
Taim has mentioned of course the shocking number of people that die or get burned out since they're forced to advance in power. You can't have it all.
I wonder if any other Aes Sedai besides Nynaeve can heal stilling.

Nynaeve alone has rediscovered the powerful healing that doesn't leave the user drained (Asha'man have this too I think, by the dozens) she has by herself found out how to heal stilling (Flinn too) and in book 12B she discovers something else as miraculous. However the second thing is so intricate that I doupt many could reproduce it.

She has in a year discovered 2 things that even the Forsaken thought impossible.


EDIT: As far as prequels go, there is enough Moraine-bastory-hints in book 1 to make me wish for the other 2 prequels Jordan has promised.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeap. You have missed some stuff. Say, when Siuan is stilled and seems a very young woman after that. Or when it's mentioned that Siuan achieved the Amyrlin seat in record time, of a few years in the shawl and also she has been Amyrlin Seat for a few years too. Or the part that Moraine mentions she's cousin of King Laman, that was killed in the Aiel war 20 years ago, and cousin to Tigraine who was a bit older than Morgase. So Moraine's age was actually well placed in the mid 40s since book 2 I think.

Wow, yeah, I guess since Moraine was position in the early books as the Aes Sedai, I just pinned the usual Aes Sedai traits on her in my head.



In good news, I finally picked up the Gathering Storm. As soon as I finish my current book (Galactic Patrol, of the Lensmen series.) TGS is next, so we can talk about it.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Can somebody please sum up the plot of the series for me...?

In three sentences?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Oof... that's a tough one... I'll take a crack at it.


In a world... where history repeats in a pattern through the ages...One Man will find that he is the prophesied reincarnation of "The Dragon," the man who "broke the world" the last time through the pattern. In a world... where the only source of magical power is divided into male and female halves, men who touch their tainted half of the One Power are destined to go mad, while the women who can channel their half form a respected and feared order. In a world... of political machinations, intrigue, mysteries, and subterfuge, nations rise and fall while the source of all evil, The Dark One, struggles to break free from his prison and fight the Dragon Reborn in a Last Battle to break the pattern once and for all.


In other words:

It's sort-of high fantasy, though with few monsters and few magic users (not as few as ASoI&F, but fewer than FR). A group of kids leave home and find that some of them have a huge destiny. There's a bunch of complicated plots, all leading to a big Good vs. Evil showdown.

I like it a lot. Some people think it went too long. (It outlived its creator, for one thing.) It's got its idiosyncrasies, But I like it a lot, and am looking forward to reading the conclusion. (i just started book 12, the first by the new author. The 13th is out in hardcover, and the final 14th book should be out within a few years. Each book is huge, so depending on your reading rate, if you start now, you might be ready for the final one when it comes out.)

[alhoon]

... where the only source of magical power is divided into male and female halves ...

*Cough* True Power *Cough* Book 7 *cough* Ogier tree singing *cough* book 1 *Cough*.

Anyway, Gonzoron's description was good, but I'll take another swing at it:

In the world Gonzoron described, there is the everlasting battle between light and shadow (the Dark One). The battle is coming to a height with a kind of apocalypse approaching, where the world may end unless the Dragon Reborn (the man mentioned by Gonzoron) manages to defeat the Dark One (The bad god). According to most sources in the books, the Creator that made the world is distant and doesn't take a direct hand in affairs (a gardener can't pay attention to any single flower in a garden, flower = world), on the other hand this world has a trapped evil deity that wants to destroy the world, the Dark One.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

*Cough* True Power *Cough* Book 7 *cough* Ogier tree singing *cough* book 1 *Cough*.

Yes, yes, and the aelfinn and eelfinn, and wolfbrothers, and dreamwalking, etc. etc..

But he doesn't have to know about all that right away. The longer the series got the more of a misnomer The One Power became.

[alhoon]

I wouldn't consider dream walking as magic and also not wolfbrothers. Supernatural yes, magic no.
And yes, One Power is a misnomer indeed.

[alhoon]

It's quite a wonder how fast madness creeped on Rand in the second book. I'm halfway through it and Rand (although not yet paranoid) seems to have bouts of madness every once a while! He even turned suicidical at one point. If he was madder then and more addicted to the One Power he would have caused a hell of a problem. Most men that go (or about to go) crazy in the books seem to become violent.

I remember when I was reading the third book, that I was asking myself "If he's that mad already, how the series run for so many books?!". How he brought himself back from the brink of madness? That's one of the things I want to find out while re-reading the books.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

FYI, I whipped through the book in like 3 weeks. Just finished yesterday. Wow. It's going to be tough to resist buying book 13 in hardcover, but then it won't match the rest. I just have to wait until October for paperback it seems, but that's going to be a long wait.

Random thoughts:
Just as good, if not better, than the rest.
Maybe I'm not as discerning, but I didn't notice much difference in style at all. Only Mat seemed a bit... off. Maybe too modern? Can't put my finger on it.
Egwene is my new hero. She was the star of the book, IMHO.
Where the hell is Elayne? (OK, I know she's in Caemlyn, but where the hell is she in the book?) Not a major complaint. Lots of characters, only so many pages, but still...
I agree Semirhage is darklord-worthy, but I'm beginning to worry that so is

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Rand! Hopefully that epiphany at the end will bring him back, but man, what he did to get Graendal... wow.

The Black Ajah stuff was incredible too.

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Verin FTW!

Didn't catch what you alluded to about the chapter names, I'll have to go back and take a look...

[alhoon]

If you think that this on the end was just an epiphany, you have to read book 12B. Brandon the evil commercial promoter left it at that point after all we see Rand go through so we will be gasping to see him revert back to a laughing person. I would also advise you if you indeed get book 12B by October to flip through book 12A a few days before. 12B rides right off the back of 12A, feeling the same book. I had to flip back to book 12A a couple of times when reading 12B even though I had read it practically back to back.

Man, I remember when I got book 12B, I didn't want to wait and was flipping pages to hit the chapters with Rand, when he would meet his father and friends.

About the chapter names... if I hadn't given it to my cousin I would check, because I don't remember.


About differences in style: Women make more sense now, Mat is funnier (and somewhat different), Rand is more focused to Min than the other two of his lovers* and Avienda is plain different. Reading book 0 (prequel), 1 and 2 again (I'm in the middle of book 2) I find that I prefer Brandon's style. Sure, Brandon also over-details minute things but you were right, Jordan was even more descriptive. All in all, the book feels written by a younger person, not a 60-years old man closer to my perspective of the world and how things are. Especially the women. I can now predict how a woman would react while with Jordan I couldn't.

*That's what my cousin described as "Jordan's erotic fantasies put on paper in a way that the hero can't be blamed for being lecherous."


Spoiler

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About Verin, when I read the paragraph when Egwene wonders why she calls the dress green and she realizes she lied I said "Crap. Black Ajah or Forsaken have taken Verin's form with mask of mirrors!" When she later says she's black I was sure she was toying with Egwene.
Then she starts being Verin-y but I just couldn't accept it. I was thinking "My, the black Ajah sister makes a good immitation of Verin. Perhaps it's Mesaana." Then she says she drank poison to spit out the names of the black Ajah and give her the book. The shell of no-its-not-Verin! started to crack, but I thought Mesaana-disguised-as-Verin was lying and giving her false clues.
Then Verin died.
I still stuborny had some hopes it was still a ruse with a weave or something, but then the book started bombing names of known black sisters, some of which would be an asset for Mesaana to give away.

As for the numbers: 200 blacks. The second biggest Ajah. 1/6 sisters is black. That's why Moraine said to Rand "trust no woman that wears the sawl". Between reds, blacks and just self serving Aes Sedai, it would be 1/2 chance for Rand to have a bad apple in his hands.

Reading book 0 after years I found out the reason: The keepers of novices for decades (if not a century) were black sisters. Easy enough to get recruits.

As for Verin... I can't believe that I missed that she burned down a farm with a newborn inside in book 0.
Merean was another kind and grandmotherly Aes Sedai, that was keeping son, daughter and father tied with air while battling Moraine, speaking in soft tones and kindly, like your grandma would, as she moved a gagged and helpless boy over a cliff and dropped him to die in front of his father.
Between Verin and Merean, I don't think I'll ever trust a grandmotherly Aes Sedai again. The way things are, I'm pretty sure that some of the kin's circle (the old women) are darkfriends.

NOTE: According to this site (it contains BIG spoilers) there were clues and hints about the black Ajah sister. You know, the Jordan clues. A lie here and a thought there, spread in 10 or so books. Now that I read it, I remember that I was wondering back then if I was mistaken in thinking it was a lie, if it was some twisting of truth or the teller was black.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

About the chapter names... if I hadn't given it to my cousin I would check, because I don't remember.

I went back and looked and didn't notice anything odd. Is it a code of some sort?

Rand is more focused to Min than the other two of his lovers*

Well, she was the one that was there. IIRC in the past, he tended to focus on the member of his harem that was available. Elayne was half a continent away, and Aviendha was busy hauling rocks and such. (BTW, I would make a good Wise One apparently, since I guessed what she had to do long before she did. Although, I guess my utter lack of femininity might hold me back from being allowed in the club. )


Otherwise, valid points I guess. It's been so long since I read the early books, I guess I didn't notice. The recent ones definitely felt similar in pace simply because RJ was trying to race the grim reaper.

*That's what my cousin described as "Jordan's erotic fantasies put on paper in a way that the hero can't be blamed for being lecherous."

the series is FULL of Jordan's erotic fantasies. that's part of the charm. It took me several books to notice, but as you're re-reading, keep an eye out for necklaces and other items "dangling between her breasts", women "Folding her arms beneath her bosom," and dresses that are "tight across the ample bosom". Not to mention all the rituals and customs that for some reason require nudity (among the Aiel AND the Aes Sedai AND the Sea Folk...) and all the women being strapped, spanked, or beaten with weaves of Air.

The whole triple sister-wife thing was downright normal after all that. RJ was rather transparent at times.

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The shell of no-its-not-Verin! started to crack,

LOL. I saw it coming because I'd read up on some fan theories on the 'net a few books ago. I wasn't sure whether to believe all the "clues" were deliberate on RJ's part or not. But I'd already come to terms with the possibility that it might be true. I was relieved to find out that

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While Verin was Black Ajah, she wasn't really on the Dark One's side

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As for Verin... I can't believe that I missed that she burned down a farm with a newborn inside in book 0.

Huh?!? I don't remember that one. Will have to look it up.

[alhoon]

Well, ample bosoms aren't really fantasies you know. Some women have them. I can't say I noticed any more ample bosoms or pretty women than usual for such a world. You wouldn't find a man in a monogamic society with 3 wives.
As for ritual requiring nudity... well, all religions have them. I considered that common. Truth be told, we haven't been told the ritual that makes one an Asha'man to see if it requires nudity but from what I've gathered so far, the ritual to become an Asha'man propably requires 13 Mydraal, not nudity.

As for the stable incident

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Myrean and Verin, both grandmotherly and kind, are the two black sisters that are together when the fire that kills a newborn and his father (that could be the Dragon Reborn) happened. It happened in Moraine's way to Maradon, a bit before she meets Cadsuane. From the number of accidents that happened to could-be-dragons in 20 years I can gather that what Verin confesses about doing a lot of bad things is actually true. According to Moraine's estimation there would be thousands of too-lucky-possible-dragons assassinated by blacks.
Kind Verin propably killed them with poison, since she had a knack for it (tried to poison Cadsuane, poisoned herself and her warder) to not make them suffer, but she propably has a lot of skeletons in her closet. Being a black for at least 70 years accounts to a lot of naughty acts anyway.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Well, ample bosoms aren't really fantasies you know. Some women have them. I can't say I noticed any more ample bosoms or pretty women than usual for such a world.

Believe me, I have nothing against ample bosoms, I think Jordan just calls more attention to them than most other authors. Once you start noticing, you can't stop. I don't remember such common mentions of breasts and cleavage in LOTR or A Song of Ice and Fire (and while Tolkein was probably too prudish to consider it, GRR Martin is not above gratuitous nudity.)

As for ritual requiring nudity... well, all religions have them.

They do?!?!? I know of exactly one in my own religion, and it's only really practiced by the very observant (the mikveh). And it involves no spankings.

As for the stable incident

Ah, I vaguely remember that, but was it obvious that it was

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Verin and Myrean who did it from that book? or only in retrospect?

[alhoon]

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No, only after finishing both book 12A and book 0 you put the two together. When I read book 0 the first time, I didn't really notice Verin and Myrean there. It was Cadsuane that took the spotlight. It's more like "Moraine was angry and frustrated that the boy has died in an accident. Verin and Myrean were having tea at an inn, Myrean covering Moraine's butt from the other sisters and then Cadsuane arrived. She tried to talk some sense into Moraine a-la stern grandmother, but Moraine was stupid and kept risking her hide."
You don't put fire+Myrean+Verin together. Even after reading the book, you just put fire+Myrean together.
At any case even if I'm mistaken and Verin had no part in this, she certainly did her share of assassinations. She wasn't an innocent woman. After all, she was planning to poison Cadsuane.

.

EDIT:

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She really seems nice in book 2 though. Putting the pieces together, she's traveling with Ingtar to reclaim the horn for the white tower, not for darkfriends the way she acts. I don't think she knew Ingtar was a darkfriend however.
The darkfriends being darkfriends, i.e. secretive, self-serving, treacherous, she could well get away with it alive. Few darkfriends knew about the horn of Valere and I doupt she was known to Liadrin.
Being a black along with knowing the Dragon Reborn's identity, afforded her understanding of what was at stake far better than anyone (including Moraine and Siuan) at this point. So she had every reason to run along the great hunt and push onward even faster than Ingtar.
That, and Perrin & Mat being Tavaren and needing her.

Another change in writting is that under Brandon most people use the term Channeler for those that can channel while Jordan used to have them call channelers "Aes Sedai" to the point it was ridiculous. Mat at book 2 even says "Rand you're an Aes Sedai" and everyone except Seanchan call Damane "Aes Sedai" even Nynaeve