Evil player characters in Ravenloft: A Dissenting View

[Tenebris]

When I ran a Grand Conjunction campaign back in the day

I love the concept and story arc of the Grand Conjunction but some of the modules need quite a bit of work, although nearly all of them had flashes of brilliance.

[DilisnyaRevenge]

I love the concept and story arc of the Grand Conjunction but some of the modules need quite a bit of work, although nearly all of them had flashes of brilliance.

Truth! I'm just finishing doing these. IMHO, the two that are probably the most directly playable are Night of the Walking Dead and From the Shadows.

[Tenebris]

My only issue with Night of the Walking Dead is the treasure allocation. A dwarf they've just met hands them magic weapons and armor, yet they get nothing for defeating a Zombie lord, which at the intended PC level is certain to be a near death experience at minimum in and of itself. I think I would remove the gift of the dwarf and add a treasure table to the Zombie lord himself. Treasure is so very tricky in Ravenloft however, because you want to give the PC's enough to be able to survive the horrors of the land itself, yet the world itself needs to remain low magic and the PC's need no more then what is absolutely necessary to scrape by with.
Also some of the modules such as Touch of Death give out tons of gold and few items, and I don't like Ravenloft PC's to be wealthy and the very thought of a "magic shop" in Ravenloft is contrary to everything the setting is about. Before I run these modules for any PC's I'm going to rework some of the end bosses, and redo the treasure--less rampant gold and more giving them specifically items they will need in later encounters. I also believe this is in the spirit of I6 and the setting in general.
Any ideas or experience you have to share on this would be welcomed.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Really, the only module of the series which is truly problematic is Ship of Horror, because it's so poorly written.

[Tadelin]

Tadelin attempts to steer the topic back on topic and away from the GC comments.

It is sad that they didn't want you to play evil characters in the setting originally. I can see both sides of the argument on that, but I firmly have to state this: one of the most fun things you can do in the setting is attempt to atone for the evil you've done to drive you down a path of corruption. By not allowing evil characters, you're keeping people from playing those characters which have the highest chance to fall, and therefore have the best chance to atone and repent.

I agree that atonement is a royal pain, but the hardest challenges are the most satisfying when you finally complete them.

[Zettaijin]

When I ran a Grand Conjunction campaign back in the day

I love the concept and story arc of the Grand Conjunction but some of the modules need quite a bit of work, although nearly all of them had flashes of brilliance.

Where did I say that?

I have nothing to do with this thread drift! I swear!

[DilisnyaRevenge]

Really, the only module of the series which is truly problematic is Ship of Horror, because it's so poorly written.

Yes indeed. While the others (IMHO) need tweaks, Ship just needs to be sunk.

Tadelin attempts to steer the topic back on topic and away from the GC comments.

Yes... Sorry about the derailed thread. Back on topic, I haven't run a Ravenloft campaign recently without at least some characters that walk the line of evil. A good example: one campaign had a PC that was a Falkovnian officer who was never afraid to do heinous acts of torture and murder of an enemy, but tempered with a fierce loyalty and bravery when it came to his family and troops. This loyalty only grew in his interaction with the other PCs and by the end of the campaign, he willfully paid a terrible price for pulling his troops back and ordering them to flee instead of being poured into the meat grinder of the Dean Man's Wars. He was a tremendously dynamic and interesting character that would have been totally lost if I hadn't allowed "evil" characters.

Of course, the player was a good friend who I have gamed with for over 20 years. If you are dealing with immature players, evil characters are a disaster waiting to happen...

[Bluebomber4evr]

When I ran a Grand Conjunction campaign back in the day

Where did I say that?

I have nothing to do with this thread drift! I swear!

LOL he switched our quotes

[Zettaijin]

Where did I say that?

I have nothing to do with this thread drift! I swear!

LOL he switched our quotes

I see... so you're taking responsibility for this, right? Right?

OK, glad we're clear on that...

OK guys, get the torches, we've got ourselves a thread drifter to burn!

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. For the most part, I agree: evil characters have a place in Ravenloft, but only played by extremely experienced, mature, and skillful roleplayers, and the consent of the other players. I've seen even very experienced and otherwise good roleplayers balk at sharing a party with an evil PC, even with assurances that the evil PC would have good reasons not to kill/steal from the other PCs. Some people just can't believe in shades of gray and that even CE isn't stupid-evil.

And I'm not sure if I'd ever allow a full evil party. One character slipping from good to evil or redeeming himself from evil to good, or dancing on the edge could make for good drama. A whole party of them could quickly get silly.

[Tenebris]

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. For the most part, I agree: evil characters have a place in Ravenloft, but only played by extremely experienced, mature, and skillful roleplayers, and the consent of the other players. I've seen even very experienced and otherwise good roleplayers balk at sharing a party with an evil PC, even with assurances that the evil PC would have good reasons not to kill/steal from the other PCs. Some people just can't believe in shades of gray and that even CE isn't stupid-evil.

And I'm not sure if I'd ever allow a full evil party. One character slipping from good to evil or redeeming himself from evil to good, or dancing on the edge could make for good drama. A whole party of them could quickly get silly.

On the contrary, I believe a whole party of pc's attempting to retain what humanity they have left, and if possible atone in small ways for their dark impulses, while simultaneously having to battle said impulses serves to internalize the very horror that Ravenloft is all about. "The monster out there" is a superficial level of horror, which if a gothic horror campaign rests itself solely on will have difficulty in sustaining dread throughout the course of a campaign. Conversely, "the monster in here" is another level of horror entirely, which when combined with the former, takes the Gothic horror setting to another level in terms of dread and in terms of roleplay. It is precisely the absence of this that, in my humble opinion, has been the primary flaw of the setting.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

On the contrary, I believe a whole party of pc's attempting to retain what humanity they have left, and if possible atone in small ways for their dark impulses, while simultaneously having to battle said impulses serves to internalize the very horror that Ravenloft is all about.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I think that theme is a great one, and can be part of a great campaign. But if everyone on the team is going through the same struggle, it's a bit too World of Darkness for me. A party full of flawed heroes is fine. A mix of heroes and struggling antiheroes is good too. But a pack of antiheroes banding together is going to step on each other's dramatic toes a lot, I would fear.

[Tenebris]

That being said, I would never compel a party to play evil characters for the sake of heightened dramatic roleplay anymore then I would compel them to be nonevil for the sake of an easier campaign to DM. The point is that choice is always good and almost any party type is viable in the setting. Mature players are required of course but in my case with a static group of 20+ year veterans going back to 1st edition, that isn't a problem. Furthermore, immature roleplay can be just as problematic among good aligned pcs as well (rarely have I seen a more disruptive PC than an overplayed paladin for example). I should also note, if you missed it earlier that evil pcs in my Ravenloft campaigns have yet another check (we call it a beast check) when trying to perform an atoning act of good. This represents the conflict of their rational mind trying to stave off their doom conflicting with the demands of their dark id. Much in the spirit of original Ravenloft, this check can be avoided through appropiate roleplay, but should the character fail to roleplay the event properly, then the dice take over. With our group, old-timers as it is, such checks are not often required but they still come up from time to time, and add yet another layer of suspense and a stark reminder of the inevitability of their own doom.

This may not be for everyone, as it is the darkest of the dark in terms of campaign moods, and in any event such style should ideally be woven intermittently between lighter campaigns. But, properly played, it offers the pinnacle of horror within the context of the setting.

[Tadelin]

I'm getting ready to run a non-Ravenloft evil game with my local group. They're looking for a change of pace, so I'm going to basically give them as much rope as they want so I can hang them later. I understand that RL makes playing evil characters that much more complicated because of the implications of falling. I'm going to have to take the stance that it's possible to have a successful and good campaign with all evil characters... But it's unlikely to happen.

[Deewun]

I ran an incredibly fun all evil campaign that was non-Ravenloft. Since everyone was a bad guy, the main "villain" was lawful good. It was pretty cool stuff. But that is neither here nor there.