I will have to agree mostly with Zoria here, but not the "angels and demons" milieu. Again, we have to remember that Ravenloft in 4e, even if it would be an "optional" campaign setting, would carry with it a fantasy horror feel, which is not necessarily Gothic in its entirety. It would ultimately still have to cater to D&D fans who love 4e and its fantastic panoramas. As I see it, Ravenloft would still be a fantastic world, with dragonborn and earth motes, but it will have to be a darker kind of fantastic, a world where heroes, whatever race or class they are, are extremely weak points of light against an encroaching and eventually deepening darkness. Let's not forget that: 1- the first and apparently best Ravenloft novel "Vampire of the Mists" is based on a link between the high fantasy of the Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft; and 2- the protagonist is an elven vampire.
I'm not afraid to say that I love both D&D4E and Ravenloft, and I don't see any reason why they can't meld with each other. I'm really sick of 4E bashing if you ask me. I even got PM's saying my new "Worlds of Ravenloft" sucks because the stats are in 4E, and that's just disheartening to say the least.
(And by the way, I want recognition on the darklord smilies. I made them, after all.)
Dion of the Fraternity wrote:I'm not afraid to say that I love both D&D4E and Ravenloft, and I don't see any reason why they can't meld with each other. I'm really sick of 4E bashing if you ask me.
What exactly are you trying to say with this? I don't see any 4e bashing in this thread or anywhere else on this board (it's been a long while since this edition "bashing" died, IMHO).
When non-4e people say something about 4e these days, it's usually to say they are not sure the 4e feel fits RL, that's all. No bashing.
I even got PM's saying my new "Worlds of Ravenloft" sucks because the stats are in 4E, and that's just disheartening to say the least.
Very surprising, IMHO, since many 3e (and 2e ) people here say they love to read the fluff in any edition (and say they will buy 4e to get new fluff).
I do assume you did keep these important PMs, or remember from whom.
Please wikileak the names of these undelicate posters, we would like to know who they are.
Joël
"A full set of (game) rules is so massively complicated that the only time they were all bound together in a single volume, they underwent gravitational collapse and became a black hole" (Adams)
Dion of the Fraternity wrote:(And by the way, I want recognition on the darklord smilies. I made them, after all.)
I hereby give you recognition... They are all awesome and I love how they make our board feel a bit unique. Sometimes you just feel like... (What, am I the only one?) Thanks for making them, Dion! (I'd always wondered who did it, and always mean to try my hand at making some more.) I'd be glad to put a little "created by Dion of the FoS" somewhere, but I can't really figure out a good place for it that doesn't require some serious phpbb hacking. If you have an idea, let me know...
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
I second the recognition!! In fact I call for another. Its seems Van Richten should be in the mix.
Do us a favor Luv, Stick yer 'ead in a bucket a kick it!
So, gentlemen, that's how it is. Until Grissome.... resurfaces, I'm the acting president, and I say starting with this... anniversary festival, we run this city into the ground! :D
Ewancummings is right, Ravenloft must be worth fighting for in order for it to work. His observation of what the good fight really entails is the beauty of the setting; it is an everyman's battle, and the scope of it need not be the toppling of darklords or even the saving of a village. It is about defining a PC's values and measuring what he will do to defend them. In fact, it is what we do as human beings in a non-fantasy existence every single day.
To Dion, I've always been an admirer of your work and it is a real shame that someone from THIS board (we are all like family!) would be so harsh based on something so meaningless as the version of the ruleset. Ravenloft is Ravenloft and we can use every shred of it. Even what Wizbro will feed us next year.
I'd also say Dion has hit the nail on the head for what to expect from this new edition. It is up to use, the storytellers, to give it the flavor we think it needs.
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Strahdsbuddy wrote:it is a real shame that someone from THIS board (we are all like family!) would be so harsh based on something so meaningless as the version of the ruleset.
Me too, I'd like to know the names of these undelicate persons.
Joël
"A full set of (game) rules is so massively complicated that the only time they were all bound together in a single volume, they underwent gravitational collapse and became a black hole" (Adams)
Greetings to everybody!
I'd like to say good evening, after a way to much absence from gentleman's club like Le Cafe du Nuit.
I'd like to say few words about upcoming edition of our beloved world. First of all I look toward it. Certainly, I'll buy it. I have high hopes and think, the will be lived up to.
Why?
First of all, I like D&D 4 Edition. I like it much better than 3.x edition. Currently I run a Pathfinder campaign and must say. I'm tired of this mechanics. It binds me, is too complicated to my taste. Who needs five hundred pages of rules and four pages of character's conditions?
When fourth edition was released, I read it from cover to cover and didn't liked it. It was way too much similar to MMORPG. I still think it is, but after few sessions of Dark Sun campaign, I like it. It easier, less complicated and intuitive. It is everything, 3.x wasn't. That's the first point, it is much more player, DM and story friendly,
Second thing: I was afraid that designers will "rape" setting to accommodate it to fourth edition standards and cosmology. They didn't. People who wrote those books (Yes, dear Mouseferatu, I point at YOU) did a fine job. The mend and enriched setting with elements of fourth edition. So, I count on it, that the same will be fact with new Ravenloft 2011.
Third one. Friend of mine bought and ran Gamma World. I'm not a fan of this setting. I did not played it but read the book. It is a light-toned game of mutants, cockroaches, androids and aliens. Very fine. But what designers did, it's fitting an very open setting in 160 pages. I don't dig those cards, especially they are collectible, but ok, let them be. I don't suspect there should be place for them in Ravenloft, but who knows?
So, after seeing what has been done with Dark Sun and how Gamma World looks like, I'm hopeful and positive.
What do I expect?
- I like mundane feel of third edition's Ravenloft. For the first time I felt I have a real world before my eyes, not decorations or stage for heroes. I'd like to see it developed as world: no common language, no over-good organisations that keep status quo, no super heroes of xx level. What I fear a little bit, is that we will be back to "weekend in hell" type of adventures, as 4th edition is about heroes conquering and defeating evil to save the day.
- I'd like to see history moved on. Not very much and not in Forgotten Realms style, but I'm dying to now, if Sthrad will face Dukkar, what Azalin will do about Death etc. I dream of campaign in style of Grand Conjuction,a s someone stated affecting not only Ravenloft, but also other worlds, even if only as background information.
- Bear in mind that "Domains of Dread" was such stand-alone handbook. New Ravenloft could look like that. But, I hope that we will be handed with two books in box (like ravenloftish red one), one with mechanics and second one dealing with world. Perhaps designers will take us to new domains or fully explore those that were only mentioned?
- And last but not least, I expect interesting hooks, new information, beautiful illustrations.
That's for now from me.
I love shorcuts!:
"IMHO a SH HH should be a better RL DL"
- Kargatane mailing list member
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My campaign's journal: [url]http://forgotten-epic.blogspot.com[/url]
Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:An interesting idea, but I could not disagree more.
I think the moral issue is one of the major draws of Ravenloft. The idea that the "heroes" fight the good fight, even against insurmountable odds, and sometimes against an unknown enemy, because even a small victory is a victory. (And that the fight is sometimes within as well as without, and that both fights are equally relevant.) And that even in defeat, the fact that the battle was fought is still noble. That's what I look for in Ravenloft.
ewancummins wrote:IMO, Ravenloft is a profoundly moral world, but it allows for complexity and depth. A 'good world ' or 'evil world' would be something I'd expect from an outer plane inhabited by fiends of celestials, maybe, but not from a world of mortals.
YMMV
I agree with both those statements.
There is moral complexity in Ravenloft where there is grayness on what's good and what's wrong and there's also some clear cuts on what's good and what's wrong. Sometimes the heroes fight evil and sometimes they have to take decide if they take the not-so-good path in order to claim victory.
And let's not forget what Azalin said in SotK:
"Evil is at it's worst when it is convenient"
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia My DMGuild work!
Dion of the Fraternity wrote:I will have to agree mostly with Zoria here, but not the "angels and demons" milieu. Again, we have to remember that Ravenloft in 4e, even if it would be an "optional" campaign setting, would carry with it a fantasy horror feel, which is not necessarily Gothic in its entirety. It would ultimately still have to cater to D&D fans who love 4e and its fantastic panoramas. As I see it, Ravenloft would still be a fantastic world, with dragonborn and earth motes, but it will have to be a darker kind of fantastic, a world where heroes, whatever race or class they are, are extremely weak points of light against an encroaching and eventually deepening darkness. Let's not forget that: 1- the first and apparently best Ravenloft novel "Vampire of the Mists" is based on a link between the high fantasy of the Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft; and 2- the protagonist is an elven vampire.
I'm not afraid to say that I love both D&D4E and Ravenloft, and I don't see any reason why they can't meld with each other. I'm really sick of 4E bashing if you ask me. I even got PM's saying my new "Worlds of Ravenloft" sucks because the stats are in 4E, and that's just disheartening to say the least.
(And by the way, I want recognition on the darklord smilies. I made them, after all.)
I like your work, Dion! The smilies are fun.
Those PMs suck.
The Gothic setting and ethos are not negotiable for me, as a Ravenloft player and DM. Ravenloft is Gothic horror+ iconic D&D.
Now, I could see adding some of the new 4E stuff like earthmotes, dragonborn,etc to an Island or Terror or even to a whole cluster. Best to make new islands for such things. Just keep it out of the Core, please. That way, it's easily excised /ignored without major rewriting/reworking efforts by a DM who prefers his Ravenloft more old school/true to established canon. Ravenloft can be modular.
I've seen some nice Ravenloft work with 4E from posters here. In fact, if some of y'all were on the Hasbro team, I'd feel a lot more optimistic about the new Ravenloft stuff!
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
FTR, I wasn't sure what an earthmote was, so I looked it up... Guess what? Ravenloft already has one! and has since 2nd edition... The Baron's Eyrie, from Dungeon Magazine #58. Floating castle domain ruled by a werebat. We're ahead of the times, it seems.
"We're realistic heroes. We're not here to save the world, just nudge the world into a better place."
It wasn't a good adventure though. Just get in the castle, someway and start hacking monsters, meet werebats on the dinner, say "hi", keep hacking monsters and then kill big bad werebat.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia My DMGuild work!
Indeed, this is an intriguing claim. Please wikileak the names of these!
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The Gothic setting and ethos are not negotiable for me, as a Ravenloft player and DM. Ravenloft is Gothic horror+ iconic D&D.
Agreed. I also wish some of us were on the design team (David for 4e mechanics, and the rest of us for fluff).
Yep alhoon, the Baron Eyrie was quite dull. Hack n Slash, no discussion, no strategies. Fun DL crossover, but that was about it.
Joël
"A full set of (game) rules is so massively complicated that the only time they were all bound together in a single volume, they underwent gravitational collapse and became a black hole" (Adams)
Baron's Eyrie looks like goofy fun- but I don't think, as written, that it is a great Ravenloft adventure.
It could certainly be reworked into one, though.
If Wizards wants to contract out, I will work on RL.
I would imagine that they've already begun the work, of course.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
About the PMs to a administrator and member of the Frat telling him that his work isn't appreciated is wrong IMO. I'm all for constructive critisism although it could be disheartening. But it should be out in the open.
PS. I haven't checked Dion's work on 4E because it's 4E. I don't think his work sucks (his work on 3rd Edition was good) but I'm not insterested in 4E Ravenloft for the time.
After 4E Ravenloft gets published I may check it though.
On the other hand, there are perhaps hundreds of silent fans of his work, that appreciate it and want 4E Ravenloft stats and that also think Ravenloft and 4E could mix.
PS2. Ravenloft is in the story, not in the game system. If the story is good, the game system could be different. After all, what's the real difference between a monster that drains healing surges out of character with one that drains levels? 95% of the people don't enjoy losing a whole level so they prefer the first thing.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia My DMGuild work!
) people here say they love to read the fluff in any edition (and say they will buy 4e to get new fluff).
They are all awesome and I love how they make our board feel a bit unique. Sometimes you just feel like... 
(What, am I the only one?) Thanks for making them, Dion! (I'd always wondered who did it, and always mean to try my hand at making some more.) I'd be glad to put a little "created by Dion of the FoS" somewhere, but I can't really figure out a good place for it that doesn't require some serious phpbb hacking. If you have an idea, let me know...
In fact I call for another. Its seems Van Richten should be in the mix. 
