Who is Elena Faithhold?
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I think because it's a representation of how European society went from paganism to monotheism and how a number of those monothesists fell into fantastism around the time.
Also, if I remember correctly, Elena and Katerni Shadowborn were really good friends before her fall and when Katerni "died", it hit her pretty hard. Which is ironic since Katerni's spirit now resides in Ebonbane's domain as both his prisoner and tormentor. If I remember, she also wouldn't mind having love in her life but given her twisted "evil\emmotion" detection she is doomed to turn-down\destroy anyone who would truely care about her and makes her the target of charlitans who would only take advantage of her.
I like the idea of her making a little visit to the core and I could see her maybe taking over the Tepest, but the more technologically advanced domains would be a problem. Which brings the question: What would her stance of guns be? Would she start using them or deem them as evil and run into some major snags in her in campaign. As for Drakov, being the sexist he is would definately toss dissmiss her as no real threat. Now what would be interesting is seeing how her and fellow religious fantatic, Diambel, would react to each other.
Also, if I remember correctly, Elena and Katerni Shadowborn were really good friends before her fall and when Katerni "died", it hit her pretty hard. Which is ironic since Katerni's spirit now resides in Ebonbane's domain as both his prisoner and tormentor. If I remember, she also wouldn't mind having love in her life but given her twisted "evil\emmotion" detection she is doomed to turn-down\destroy anyone who would truely care about her and makes her the target of charlitans who would only take advantage of her.
I like the idea of her making a little visit to the core and I could see her maybe taking over the Tepest, but the more technologically advanced domains would be a problem. Which brings the question: What would her stance of guns be? Would she start using them or deem them as evil and run into some major snags in her in campaign. As for Drakov, being the sexist he is would definately toss dissmiss her as no real threat. Now what would be interesting is seeing how her and fellow religious fantatic, Diambel, would react to each other.
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A great dental plan!Ail wrote:Lol, what is it that Belenus has that makes him so likable to these zealot would-be tyrants?Dr Bloodworth wrote:The Nidalan and Tepestani inquisitions are both inspired by Belenus. Makes this idea even more do-able.Ail wrote:It would also be interesting to connect her to Tepest, as there seems to already be an inquisition there. How would two inquisitions of different gods deal with each other?
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I think you're thinking of the Shadowborns. Kateri Shadowborn was Ebonbane's nemesis and Elena's former paladinic comrade-at-arms; in death, her spirit helped confine Ebonbane inside her house (Shadowborn Manor) for years. Alexi Shadowborn, her son, was the founder of the Knights of the Shadow -- a covert order of do-gooders still active in the Land of Mists -- and he's followed in his Mom's footsteps, likewise helping to keep Ebonbane contained after his own martyr's death.Ail wrote:Isn't it Ebonbane instead of Shadowbane? Or then, who is this Shadowbane character?
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I'm not sure if it's Belenus specifically, or if it's part of a larger pattern: Ravenloft likes messing with the teachings of solar deities. Ra in Har'Akir comes across as a bit of a jerk, being the one (not the DPs! ) who'd cursed its darklord in the first place. Lathander Morninglord's original teachings have been distorted in Barovia (CG vs NG, etc), albeit not as severely as those of Belenus. Belenus, of course, would be horrified by the things Elena and the Tepestani have been doing in his name. And Andral's faith -- the native deity of Barovia and Borca, hence the ancestral religion of Balok-speakers everywhere -- is extinct amongst humans: preserved only by a couple of crackpot ravenkin and some leftover relics no one can find.Ail wrote:Lol, what is it that Belenus has that makes him so likable to these zealot would-be tyrants?Dr Bloodworth wrote:The Nidalan and Tepestani inquisitions are both inspired by Belenus. Makes this idea even more do-able.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
IIRC, Belanus had the whole theme of "Purifying Flame" and smiting of the unrighteous, and while the unrighteous could use a good smiting now and then it's pretty easy for that sort of thing to get taken the wrong way.
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IIRC Ra had very good reasons for cursing Ankhtepot: the man murdered Ra's priests, razed his temples, and denounced him when the pharaoh failed to find the secret to immortality. He wasn't being a jerk, he was just giving Ankhtepot a fitting punishment (and given the nature of the Egyptian pantheon and its relationship with the pharaoh, I'd say Ankh got off easy for what amounts to high treason to his entire nation in addition to all his religious crimes).Rotipher of the FoS wrote:I'm not sure if it's Belenus specifically, or if it's part of a larger pattern: Ravenloft likes messing with the teachings of solar deities. Ra in Har'Akir comes across as a bit of a jerk, being the one (not the DPs! ) who'd cursed its darklord in the first place. Lathander Morninglord's original teachings have been distorted in Barovia (CG vs NG, etc), albeit not as severely as those of Belenus. Belenus, of course, would be horrified by the things Elena and the Tepestani have been doing in his name. And Andral's faith -- the native deity of Barovia and Borca, hence the ancestral religion of Balok-speakers everywhere -- is extinct amongst humans: preserved only by a couple of crackpot ravenkin and some leftover relics no one can find.
It's Kateri, folks, no "n" in her name.
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I don't dispute that Ankhtepot deserved some sort of curse. But the one Ra handed down upon the pharaoh was a kind that, by its very nature, made everyone around him suffer far worse than he did! What did Ankhtepot's family or retainers do, that merited their being killed and doomed to undeath? Even if some had been complicit in urging on the pharaoh's quest for earthly immortality, Ra's retribution didn't stop at the palace gates. It effectively signed over the entire kingdom to an eternity of Ankhtepot's abuses: the very abuses which the curse was ostensibly punishing, yet actually serves to perpetuate.High Priest Mikhal wrote: IIRC Ra had very good reasons for cursing Ankhtepot: the man murdered Ra's priests, razed his temples, and denounced him when the pharaoh failed to find the secret to immortality. He wasn't being a jerk, he was just giving Ankhtepot a fitting punishment (and given the nature of the Egyptian pantheon and its relationship with the pharaoh, I'd say Ankh got off easy for what amounts to high treason to his entire nation in addition to all his religious crimes).
Not that spanking a kingdom for the crimes of its ruler is in any way out of character for an Ancient or Classical-era setting, mind: old pantheonic deities seldom cared about collateral damage when they were ticked off. But it's still a case of values dissonance, when Ra's actions are examined in light of either IRL Judeo-Christian or in-game Ezran theology: modern mindsets expect deities to protect their faithful, not condemn them for offenses committed by someone they've never even met. Even the Dark Powers are a bit more selective in their payback than that, much of the time: they'll hang innocents out to dry as monster chow, but eternal suffering is usually reserved for darklords, or inflicted by villains without the DPs' assistance.
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?? My only sources are Domains of Dread and the PC game Stone Prophet so I'm not sure of all that went down. AFAIK it was just Ankh who got cursed and was snatched away to a copy of his old kingdom, one where his curse had--in a false history--damned the people to suffer as he does.
Actually that everyone got it would fit with the real life idea that the pharaoh is the one who must appease the gods. Priests serve the gods, but it's the ruler of Egypt (or Har'Akir)--the pharaoh alone--who determined if the kingdom would be blessed or cursed by the gods. Under that idea, Ankhtepot didn't just damn himself but his entire kingdom. If the original creators were using the original Egyptian beliefs it only makes sense Ra struck down all of Har'Akir. IDK for sure, I'm just going on the Egyptology I know and guessing if it was applied or not.
Now back to Elena. Oh, how I love to hate her...
Actually that everyone got it would fit with the real life idea that the pharaoh is the one who must appease the gods. Priests serve the gods, but it's the ruler of Egypt (or Har'Akir)--the pharaoh alone--who determined if the kingdom would be blessed or cursed by the gods. Under that idea, Ankhtepot didn't just damn himself but his entire kingdom. If the original creators were using the original Egyptian beliefs it only makes sense Ra struck down all of Har'Akir. IDK for sure, I'm just going on the Egyptology I know and guessing if it was applied or not.
Now back to Elena. Oh, how I love to hate her...
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Unfortunately, Darklords explicitly states that he didn't get taken in by Ravenloft until the remaining priests murdered and mummified him. By that point, he'd already killed most of his own family, retainers, and priests, then used the resulting Ancient Dead to terrorize his unlucky subjects. In this light, Ra still seems like an arbitrarily-spiteful jerk, for all that it fits with classical thinking about gods' attitude problems.High Priest Mikhal wrote:My only sources are Domains of Dread and the PC game Stone Prophet so I'm not sure of all that went down. AFAIK it was just Ankh who got cursed and was snatched away to a copy of his old kingdom, one where his curse had--in a false history--damned the people to suffer as he does.
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Agreed. Remember that all this is from her original writeup, some of which has been retconned (her god's name was never mentioned in IoT, for example), but she's never really been given the full revamp she deserves, in light of the maturation of the setting. Parts of IoT's Nidala reads much more like a weekend in hell, kill the darklord scenario than a sustainable domain with developable darklord character. I'm thinking a more modern spin on her would probably leave her remembering the doubts but suppressing them throughout the week, having them gnaw at the back of her mind.Ail wrote:But I find that weekly moonlight ride both alluring and weak. I don't feel there is enough conflict within her and if she forgets everything that happens on those rides, they truly have no use, it seems.
(Note also that I'm going off of memory here, there might be a bit more about her doubts in the book.
Well, with a little tweaking of the timeline, there's no reason not to set your campaign during her "trial run" before darkordhood. I've used the aftermath of that period in my campaign to foreshadow the trip to Nidala long before we went there. One adventure revolved around the ghost town left in Mordent after one of her judgements. And later the PCs learned the tale of what happened when Elena tried to pull that crap in Viaki (hint: Strahd took her to school and the Mists had to save her. )Jack of Tears wrote:In my RL I am seriously thinking of letting Elena loose in the core, rather than binding her to a tiny domain. This would bring something of a "crusades/knights templar" element to the core as well as providing A. another wandering threat to heroes and lands alike, and B. a means by which to include her in the game other than sucking pcs off to her domain.
As mentioned, it's the same god, but IMHO, two very different inquisitions. See my and Nathan's comments here, as to why the two aren't directly compatible.Ail wrote:It would also be interesting to connect her to Tepest, as there seems to already be an inquisition there. How would two inquisitions of different gods deal with each other?
In brief, the Tepestani inquisition:
Target: Outside Influence of the fey
Threat: REAL (the fey do pose a real danger in Tepest)
Motive: fear
Character: Well-meaning, but misinformed
Whereas, the Nidalan inquisition:
Target: Internal blasphemy and impurity
Threat: FALSE (or at least exaggerated. Most Nidalans are as good as any other folk)
Motive: self-righteousness
Character: Hypocritical Zealotry
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I agree with Ron about the two Inquisitions: they're very different in character, and IMO ought to stay that way. Just because the Inquisitors worship the same in-game god doesn't mean they have to be identical in nationality or methods; the IRL Renaissance-era Spanish Inquisition professed to serve the same God as did colonial-era New England witch hunters, after all.
Hmmm... perhaps the denominational differences between Tepestani and Nidalan Belenus-worshippers are so great that they consider each other's faiths heretical? The Ezran sects, while they disagree on certain issues, tend to get along well enough; the Belenan sects, in contrast, could have a similar hostile rivalry to what Protestants and Catholics had for centuries IRL.
Hmmm... perhaps the denominational differences between Tepestani and Nidalan Belenus-worshippers are so great that they consider each other's faiths heretical? The Ezran sects, while they disagree on certain issues, tend to get along well enough; the Belenan sects, in contrast, could have a similar hostile rivalry to what Protestants and Catholics had for centuries IRL.
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Really? Now that I didn't know. In light of that, Ra does seem more like a jerk for letting things carry on so long.Rotipher of the FoS wrote:Unfortunately, Darklords explicitly states that he didn't get taken in by Ravenloft until the remaining priests murdered and mummified him. By that point, he'd already killed most of his own family, retainers, and priests, then used the resulting Ancient Dead to terrorize his unlucky subjects. In this light, Ra still seems like an arbitrarily-spiteful jerk, for all that it fits with classical thinking about gods' attitude problems.
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re
Hostile rivalry hardly does it justice ... there were some very bloodly interactions between the two. The Pope even declaired Queen Elizabeth a heretic and stated that it was the duty of any good Catholic to see her dead. Thousands of Catholics were killed in Protestant witch hunts.hostile rivalry to what Protestants and Catholics had for centuries IRL.
Given the history of religious conflict in our world I'm surprised not to see it feature more drastically in Ravenloft.
Re: re
Although Ravenloft religions are fictional, 2nd edition D&D was following such a broad CYA policy at the time (this was the era when they wouldn't call devils and demons such, remember) that I suspect if they thought any scenario was touching upon real-world religious foibles they'd've had it removed or revised.Jack of Tears wrote:Given the history of religious conflict in our world I'm surprised not to see it feature more drastically in Ravenloft.