Does anyone play (or have played) 3.5 e6?

[Troile]

It is a houserule where character level is capped at 6 and afterward you just gain feats. It changes the scope of the world too b/c NPCs are capped at 6 too.

It sounds perfect for Ravenloft.

I think I'm going to start a side project to get an e6 game ready for the next time I start a campaign.


What do you think?

(if there is a past e6 thread could you point me to it...I didn't find it with a search)

[ewancummins]

It is a houserule where character level is capped at 6 and afterward you just gain feats. It changes the scope of the world too b/c NPCs are capped at 6 too.

It sounds perfect for Ravenloft.

I think I'm going to start a side project to get an e6 game ready for the next time I start a campaign.


What do you think?

(if there is a past e6 thread could you point me to it...I didn't find it with a search)

This pretty much eliminates prestige classes from the mix, but that doesn't much bother me.


Hmmm.. new feats but not skill points? I'd still want some mechanism for allowing new skills to be gained, and old skills to be improved incrementally. You might still want to curb the gain in skills, of course. Maybe allow just minimal increases, with skill caps applied, or something like that?

I'd also suggest possibly slower advancement, so PCs don't plateau too early in their careers.

[Troile]

This pretty much eliminates prestige classes from the mix, but that doesn't much bother me.

I'm in the process of creating Prestige Class feat chains.

After 6th level characters can choose to take a capstone feat (as is normal for e6) or enter into a Prestige feat chain.

Hmmm.. new feats but not skill points? I'd still want some mechanism for allowing new skills to be gained, and old skills to be improved incrementally. You might still want to curb the gain in skills, of course. Maybe allow just minimal increases, with skill caps applied, or something like that?

I had the same reaction, though the problem is that it defeats the purpose if you can get very high skills.

I believe there is a feat that gives 5 skill points. There is also skill focus too.

Keep in mind that 9 ranks in jump is starting to get pretty ridiculous. 9 ranks in any skill represents a lot of training. D&D starts to get super human and ridiculous past 5th level. Levels 5-10 are heroic fantasy and the goal of e6 is to stay within that realm.

Here is a link to the game:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rp ... e-d-d.html

[ewancummins]

True, there's always Skill Focus! If you allow some sort of feat that just gives 5 skill points, that would do incely, too. Superhumanly high levels in skills can get rather silly.

I think this e6 idea probably fits Ravenloft better than most other settings. I like it. I might try it in the future.

I'd still allow monsters with more than 6 HD, though. 9HD monsters are scarier when they are just flat out tougher than any human.

EDIT- This reminds me of my inclination to run a Basic/Expert Ravenloft D&D campaign with a level cap of 9 [name level]. After that, one may improve weapon mastery and general skills [both of which optional systems I use] at certain XP breaks. Under this system there are just a couple of issues:

Demihuman classes need to be reworked to balance with humans, since everyone has the same level limit now.

No one can cast any spells of 6th level or higher.

Item creation is problematic, as it's normally restricted to higher levels.

Now, maybe higher level spells could be more like special rituals, slow , uncertain, and possibly dangerous to invoke. Item creation could be similiarly risky or unreliable- or very costly [souls, treasure, time,etc]. Probably need new mini-systems for this.

[Troile]

I'd still allow monsters with more than 6 HD, though. 9HD monsters are scarier when they are just flat out tougher than any human.

Of course!

Anything up to CR 10 is fair game for a normal encounter and you could have up to CR 13 or so for the toughest creatures the PCs could encounter.

The restriction is only on class levels. A 6th level vampire with +10 feats is going to be quite the force.

I made some feats.

http://www.xphox.net/daveoftherave/othe ... 0Feats.txt

http://www.xphox.net/daveoftherave/othe ... 0Feats.txt

[ewancummins]

Your proposed e6 houserules would seem to have three major virtues:

An heroic, but not super-heroic scale is established. This fits better with horror.

It makes really tough monsters scarier, because the PCs will simply not be tougher than the beasties in a head on fight.

It simplifies handling of characters, by reducing mechanical complexity/options bloat at higher levels of play.


It obviously won't be to everyone's taste, but it is certainly worth trying out. Let us know how well it works in playtest,okay?

[artemis wands]

Hm....

At first blush, I really like this. It seems like a great substitute for the Everyman Campaign idea in the RDMG.

I wonder how well it would work by grafting a "phantom" everyman class level or two onto the beginning, starting each PC in an everyman class and then progressing them into a standard class that tops out a 6th level?

I will examine the options more intimately.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeah, I definitely could see this working, as a DM. I'm not sure how thrilled players would be with it, though.

[artemis wands]

Yeah, I definitely could see this working, as a DM. I'm not sure how thrilled players would be with it, though.

It depends on the players, I suppose.

I read the e6 rules and bounced them off of one of my players who, like me, is a veteran of multiple versions of D&D. He instantly liked the idea.

And he's someone who has much more experience as a PC than a DM.

Over the next couple of days, I'll be converting Strahd to these rules, for my own amusement mostly, but I'll post my results here when I'm satisfied with them.

[artemis wands]

Re: skills and skill points.

This essay makes a really good argument that most of the "epic" people you can think of -- either real or fictional -- are really no more than 5th level in terms of their D&D skill ranks.

Though not directly related to E6, it should be required reading for players who remain unconvinced that it's a viable idea.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

wow, interesting reading. thanks for the link!

[Jester of the FoS]

My first thought is: why keep playing?
Make some new characters, start again.

The graphs are really telling. You advance at a steady rate them plateau completely.
(they're also only semi-accurate as the biggest power jump is between L1&2 when you suddenly double in power, all increases are smaller after that).

It'd work the best if you were doing a combat-lite game where you might get very little xp each session, paired with few play sessions (once/month). Even then it might only take 2-2 1/2 years to reach level 6.
And if you play weekly or bi-weekly, you'll reach the endgame after a year.

I'd be tempted to space-out level-related benefits.
Turn L1-6 into L1-12 dividing-up what each class gets each level. HD at L2, skills at L3, etc. It'd require whole new class charts to manage, but it'd be doable.
This would also allow people to level more often and feel the related sense of accomplishment.
Heck, since you'd be re-writing all the classes, you could probably add some extra benefits that fit and maybe slip in some extra levels.

[Troile]

Yeah, I definitely could see this working, as a DM. I'm not sure how thrilled players would be with it, though.

It depends on what level you most like playing at.

If your favourite levels are 12+ it probably isn't the system for you.

I like 5-8 myself and like to end the game around 10-12 so I really like this system.

My first thought is: why keep playing?
Make some new characters, start again.

You keep advancing past 6th level, just with feats. I would say your end point would be around +10 feats to +20 feats.

The story rewards would be there, the characters would still be accomplishing things. We ensure each character has a specific motivation and/or goal in mind.

So the answer to your question would be...when they've reached their goals.

And stopping at 6th level allows them the time to strive for their goals without becoming gods in the process. That way the challenges can be within reach the whole time too.

Fighting types tend to need a lot of feats to fully realize their characters and in this system you can make up feats to gain certain 4th level spells and such for magic driven characters. I would find more rewarding to uncover the secret scroll of a long lost 4th level spell after a month of adventuring than simply gaining another level and getting it for free.

are really no more than 5th level in terms of their D&D skill ranks.

Yeah, the system was inspired by the article "Gandalf was a level 5 wizard."

[Jester of the FoS]

It just seems like a lot of work to force a round peg (low-power swords & sorcery) into a square hole (rapidly high-power 3e D&D).
To say nothing of 4e and the cinematic feel.

It might be easier to just dump 3.5 and pick-up d20 Modern and play those classes.
Or a separate system altogether (GURPS, Cortex, Storyteller).

[Troile]

It just seems like a lot of work to force a round peg (low-power swords & sorcery) into a square hole (rapidly high-power 3e D&D).

The whole point of this system is that it doesn't take much work at all.

1. Level cap at level 6
2. Gain a feat instead of gaining levels after 6


That's it. The game will work perfectly fine with just those 2 simple rules.

I really like d&d 3.5. My favourite levels are 5-8. So what I'm doing is houseruling it so that we stay in that range.

It lessens my work as a DM too because the game gets more complicated as you go up in level.

The round peg is going into a round hole, all the rules are already there. I'm just not letting the peg or hole get any bigger.