RLR: Domains looking for a Darklord 3: Tepest
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RLR: Domains looking for a Darklord 3: Tepest
Tepest shares the same problems as Mordent, a domain that has resulted very polemic in this project.
In canon RL, the darklords of Tepest are the three sisters: Laveeda, Leticia and Lorinda, who represent the ugly, cannibalistic hags of the fairy-tales. However, in our voting, they didn't received as many votes as their domain.
It's been discussed before that the three hags lack depth, that they lack strong motivations, interesting and distinct personalities, and that they're comic-book characters in comparison to others. There have been suggestions to change them along the lines of MacBeth's three sisters, or even along those of the hags in EtCR. Some have even said that the domain's focus has shifted from the hags to the inquisition, but there's still no other figure to challenge their position.
So, the question remains the same: Should we keep the hags as the darklords of Tepest? If so, what changes should we make to make them more appealing and interesting? If we choose to discard them, who should take their place? An existing character or one created just to fit the domain? If you'd choose an existing character, who would it be? Otherwise, what traits would you give to such a character?
In canon RL, the darklords of Tepest are the three sisters: Laveeda, Leticia and Lorinda, who represent the ugly, cannibalistic hags of the fairy-tales. However, in our voting, they didn't received as many votes as their domain.
It's been discussed before that the three hags lack depth, that they lack strong motivations, interesting and distinct personalities, and that they're comic-book characters in comparison to others. There have been suggestions to change them along the lines of MacBeth's three sisters, or even along those of the hags in EtCR. Some have even said that the domain's focus has shifted from the hags to the inquisition, but there's still no other figure to challenge their position.
So, the question remains the same: Should we keep the hags as the darklords of Tepest? If so, what changes should we make to make them more appealing and interesting? If we choose to discard them, who should take their place? An existing character or one created just to fit the domain? If you'd choose an existing character, who would it be? Otherwise, what traits would you give to such a character?
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When I think of Tepest, I think of storybook, Brothers Grimm, baby-cooking evil. There absolutely has to be a Wicked Witch at the heart of such a domain. And a covey of three hags works very well for that purpose. I actually quite enjoyed the writeup of the sisters, way back in the day when I had a copy of Darklords. In a 4e Ravenloft project, I can see Tepest standing in very well for the Feywild.
Now mind you, I think the hag as written in the Monster Manual to date was a fairly unfocused, weak sort of monster, rather like the ogre mage - it makes very little sense for one of the sisters to be a greenhag in landlocked Tepest, after all. The best of the lot, the Night Hag, was a demon, which excludes her from Ravenloft altogether.
4e's approach to hags seems a bit better; if you want a good 3.5/Pathfinder hag, I'd look for some kind of template to use for the sisters instead of trying to make the MM hag sexy.
An Unseelie Queen of some sort would be another excellent choice for this domain. The Queen of Air and Darkness is a very scary thing. I've always felt that a hag of some sort belongs at the heart of Ravenloft's fairytale kingdom, though. Ravenloft is Germanic more than anything else, and leaning in that direction rather than Celtic seems like a good idea to me.
Of course, we could just pull out the Big Gun of wicked, evil old witches and give the Domain to Baba Yaga. She's got a history in D&D, and she's scarier than sin. We're already pulling out scary obscure fairytale figures by admitting Bluebeard into the club... who'd like to see the Dancing Hut come back?
As for the inquisition, quite frankly I feel it's misplaced. Move the salient details of that into whatever domain Elena Faith-Hold lands in and we're in a good place.
Now mind you, I think the hag as written in the Monster Manual to date was a fairly unfocused, weak sort of monster, rather like the ogre mage - it makes very little sense for one of the sisters to be a greenhag in landlocked Tepest, after all. The best of the lot, the Night Hag, was a demon, which excludes her from Ravenloft altogether.
4e's approach to hags seems a bit better; if you want a good 3.5/Pathfinder hag, I'd look for some kind of template to use for the sisters instead of trying to make the MM hag sexy.
An Unseelie Queen of some sort would be another excellent choice for this domain. The Queen of Air and Darkness is a very scary thing. I've always felt that a hag of some sort belongs at the heart of Ravenloft's fairytale kingdom, though. Ravenloft is Germanic more than anything else, and leaning in that direction rather than Celtic seems like a good idea to me.
Of course, we could just pull out the Big Gun of wicked, evil old witches and give the Domain to Baba Yaga. She's got a history in D&D, and she's scarier than sin. We're already pulling out scary obscure fairytale figures by admitting Bluebeard into the club... who'd like to see the Dancing Hut come back?
As for the inquisition, quite frankly I feel it's misplaced. Move the salient details of that into whatever domain Elena Faith-Hold lands in and we're in a good place.
Last edited by Irving the Meek on Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Gonzoron of the FoS
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Maybe it's just me, but I always feel like: a hag is a hag. a witch is a witch. I've seen dozens of attempts to make the three sisters distinct. But somehow, none of them stick with me the next day, interesting as they may be. Maybe it's their easily confused names? I can't tell them apart. But even among other witches/hags, I get confused. Somehow vampires can be distinct in my mind, so can ghosts, werebeasts, etc. But a witch is a witch...
Again, maybe this my hang up.
But I vote for a new DL.
Again, maybe this my hang up.
But I vote for a new DL.
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I also vote for a new DL, because Tepest is -to me -more about the inquisition than the Fairy Tales.
However, if the Hags were to stay, they would need serious surgery. As Gonzoron said, there have been several attempts to make them distinct and different. I would summarize some of my favorites:
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
However, if the Hags were to stay, they would need serious surgery. As Gonzoron said, there have been several attempts to make them distinct and different. I would summarize some of my favorites:
- Going back to Shakespeare, and make them see the future, in a twisted way, mocking the stupid mortals with what they see
- Using them as a twisted form of the triple goddess archetype (Maiden/Mother/Crone)
- Separating them, and giving each one independent agendas and motivations
- Making them the ultimate potion brewers, making them important characters to deal with for daring adventurers.
- Borrowing from the hags in Stardust their need of feeding of young women to keep their own youth
- They may appear as beautiful to others, but they will always look as they are to one another
- They behave as caring and loving sisters, but deep inside they loathe each other and each one is making plans to get rid of (or control) the other two
- There are only two of them, and they're waiting for the third one to come...
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
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I really do think that if Elena is going to be core (Give her Sithicus!), then she'll end up occupying the same thematic space as the inquisition. Put it this way: Why would the inquisition *not* be with Elena, if she isn't tucked away on an island somewhere?
If we don't do the trio, I'd lean towards Baba Yaga, but she's a big enough gun that she could conceivably alter the balance of power on the Core. Wouldn't it be awesome to see the Dancing Hut back in D&D again? I remember that back from my childhood... I'd like to see Baba Yaga done as a version of the druid, actually. Some strong versions of that class would be useful to PCs, both as a positive and negative example.
If we don't do the trio, I'd lean towards Baba Yaga, but she's a big enough gun that she could conceivably alter the balance of power on the Core. Wouldn't it be awesome to see the Dancing Hut back in D&D again? I remember that back from my childhood... I'd like to see Baba Yaga done as a version of the druid, actually. Some strong versions of that class would be useful to PCs, both as a positive and negative example.
Last edited by Irving the Meek on Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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See, despite their obvious similarities, I see Elena and the Inquisition fulfilling distinct roles.
Elena searches for blasphemy/heresy in her own (human) populace. She's the oppressive fundamentalist regime. "You will be morally pure, or else!" If one of her subjects breaks the rules, it's because he is EVIL and must be punished until he repents or dies.
Wyan & Co. searches for the evil influence of the "wee beasties," the fey. They are the paranoid superstitious witch hunters. If a Tepestani breaks the rules, it's because he consorted with EVIL fey and he must be purified, even if it cause his death.
A subtle difference, but an important one, I think.
Elena searches for blasphemy/heresy in her own (human) populace. She's the oppressive fundamentalist regime. "You will be morally pure, or else!" If one of her subjects breaks the rules, it's because he is EVIL and must be punished until he repents or dies.
Wyan & Co. searches for the evil influence of the "wee beasties," the fey. They are the paranoid superstitious witch hunters. If a Tepestani breaks the rules, it's because he consorted with EVIL fey and he must be purified, even if it cause his death.
A subtle difference, but an important one, I think.
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Hmm... I'm not convinced. It's a really, really subtle distinction, and one leads into the other far too well for me to see much daylight between the two. (Fascism 101: To keep the oppressed populace from rebelling, focus them on hunting down the Other.) I'm willing to be open-minded, but I think that we should keep Tepest about the witches, not the witch hunters.
Of course, it doesn't help that Elena and the Inquisition are the only people in Ravenloft who worship Belenus, even though they do it completely differently. Oy vey. What were they drinking?
I'm also of the opinion that Ravenloft needs a place for scary Brothers Grimm evil-fey nastiness. The fey can be really, really frightening under the right circumstances, and I'd like to give them the chance to shine in a Domain all their own. (It's also a good place of origin for the eldarin in a 4e Ravenloft treatment; I'm personally thinking that there might be some potential for equating the eldarin with the shadow fey.)
Of course, it doesn't help that Elena and the Inquisition are the only people in Ravenloft who worship Belenus, even though they do it completely differently. Oy vey. What were they drinking?
I'm also of the opinion that Ravenloft needs a place for scary Brothers Grimm evil-fey nastiness. The fey can be really, really frightening under the right circumstances, and I'd like to give them the chance to shine in a Domain all their own. (It's also a good place of origin for the eldarin in a 4e Ravenloft treatment; I'm personally thinking that there might be some potential for equating the eldarin with the shadow fey.)
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Thing is, I'm not convinced that the Tepest Inquision are fascists. They seem to truly believe that the fey are the root of all their problems. It's not simple propaganda. It's paranoia, and fear of what they don't understand and can't control. If you want to get a little historical on it, it could also be about preserving patriarchy and a fear of the power of women.Irving the Meek wrote:(Fascism 101: To keep the oppressed populace from rebelling, focus them on hunting down the Other.)
A valid point, but I think the (black) cat might be out of the bag there.I'm willing to be open-minded, but I think that we should keep Tepest about the witches, not the witch hunters.
Not the first time people have worshipped the same god in different ways, is it?Of course, it doesn't help that Elena and the inquisition are the only people in Ravenloft who worship Belenus, even though they do it completely differently. Oy vey. What were they drinking?
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Absolutely agreed. But if the domain is literally "all their own" then you get the Shadow Rift. No humans, difficult to find a hook for PC's to relate to. If you allow humans in, to be the victims of the fey, what's the natural response of the humans? fear... which is where the inquisition comes from.I'm also of the opinion that Ravenloft needs a place for scary Brothers Grimm evil-fey nastiness. The fey can be really, really frightening under the right circumstances, and I'd like to give them the chance to shine in a Domain all their own.
To get back to that subtle distinction, I think Wyan is driven by fear of the Other. Elena is driven by fanatical belief in her own righteousness. Two very different motives.
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I suspect you could find a few people who think that patriarchy and fascism are similar... I'm not a Starhawk(1), but I know a few who'd make the argument.gonzoron wrote:Thing is, I'm not convinced that the Tepest Inquision are fascists. They seem to truly believe that the fey are the root of all their problems. If you want to get a little historical on it, it could also be about preserving patriarchy and a fear of the power of women.
Well, shove it back in already! We're rebooting!A valid point, but I think the (black) cat might be out of the bag there.
![Razz :P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
Oh, good grief. Now *I* need a drink. Is that canon?But you're also forgetting the druids of Forlorn, who manage to worship Belenus without getting all inquisition-y.
Seriously, one of the joys of polytheism is that you can avoid schisms like this - especially schisms without any logical reason, like this one. Can't we keep some joys simple? Pretty please? (Heck, if we go 4e we can call the Church of Ezra "unaligned" and avoid some of the shenanigans that it's forced to endure...)
See now, I'd like the humans in these sorts of tales to be The Lonely Woodcutter and his Wife, Hansel and Gretel, Red Riding Hood herself... you know, the heroes of the fairy tales. If they go all inquisitor-y on me then I'm inclined to start feeling sympathy for the Big Bad Wolf, and while that's good for some stories it's not really Ravenloft.Absolutely agreed. But if the domain is literally "all their own" then you get the Shadow Rift. No humans, difficult to find a hook for PC's to relate to. If you allow humans in, to be the victims of the fey, what's the natural response of the humans? fear... which is where the inquisition comes from.
Hrm. Maybe. I doubt that Wyan isn't a very self-righteous person, though, and Elena probably has some unpleasant conversations with her pillow. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to poor sentence construction", that sort of thing.To get back to that subtle distinction, I think Wyan is driven by fear of the Other. Elena is driven by fanatical belief in her own righteousness. Two very different motives.
Starhawk: A notorious/famous Wiccan author with strong feminist/gynarchratic views. Infamous for telling her students to "breathe from their uterus", an exhortation that exasperates male Wiccans, who have yet to find theirs.
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It's not even simple paranoia. There are a lot of fey in Tepest, and they are very dangerous. IMHO, that's one of the most interesting things about Tepest and the Inquisition--it's not that the Inquisition has evil motives. It's not that they're crazy. It's that they don't know. What are the true signs of a fey presence? What arcane magic is innocent and what is destructive? When are accusations of witchcraft identifying a hag, and when are they being used by a jealous neighbor against an innocent Halan?gonzoron wrote:Thing is, I'm not convinced that the Tepest Inquision are fascists. They seem to truly believe that the fey are the root of all their problems. It's not simple propaganda. It's paranoia, and fear of what they don't understand and can't control.Irving the Meek wrote:(Fascism 101: To keep the oppressed populace from rebelling, focus them on hunting down the Other.)
That's why I think the Inquisition and Elena are fundamentally very dissimilar. Elena knows that she, herself, is the real evil oppressor--or, if she's deep enough in denial to know that she's really good, that she's really the one destroying the villages she puts to "Banemaw's" tally. There is no Banemaw and there never was. The Inquisition knows no such thing. They've identified and are fighting a very real problem, but can they make themselves safe from the fey without destroying their society in the process?
[b]FEAR JUSTICE.[/b] :elena:
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Granted, but like I said, that aspect is only if you want to make a women's studies thesis out of the place, using historical witch burnings as a guide. But even that interpretation isn't to be found in the canon text, as far as I know.Irving the Meek wrote:I suspect you could find a few people who think that patriarchy and fascism are similar... I'm not a Starhawk(1), but I know a few who'd make the argument.
Sure is. First stated in Castles Forlorn. The druids worship Belenus and Daghda.(sp?) Confirmed in Gaz I.Oh, good grief. Now *I* need a drink. Is that canon?But you're also forgetting the druids of Forlorn, who manage to worship Belenus without getting all inquisition-y.
Well the logical reason is that the 3 domains come from three different worlds, that just happen to have worshippers of the same pantheon. Belenus worship back in the Great Kingdom that Elena hails from, with its cathedrals and holy orders of paladins is a decidedly different beast than the rustic backwater of Tepest, where Belenus is worshipped in a more folksy, simple way, with small temples.Seriously, one of the joys of polytheism is that you can avoid schisms like this - especially schisms without any logical reason, like this one. Can't we keep some joys simple? Pretty please?
There's no reason they can't be there too. In fact, maybe that's the problem. The Inquisition has become so defining to Tepest that people forget that they aren't the only humans there.See now, I'd like the humans in these sorts of tales to be The Lonely Woodcutter and his Wife, Hansel and Gretel, Red Riding Hood herself... you know, the heroes of the fairy tales.
I don't really get that vibe from his Gaz V description. I get more the feeling of a humble priest pushed to his limit by the fey and simultaneously worried that his people are getting carried away in their zealousness.I doubt that Wyan isn't a very self-righteous person, though,
According to Islands of Terror, her doubts only surface once a week, causing her to ride in the night crying until she collapses. But by morning, she's forgotten the doubts and is resolute again.and Elena probably has some unpleasant conversations with her pillow.
Precisely! It's worth noting that in both Servants of Darkness and Gaz V, Wyan is Chaotic Good, not evil.Nathan of the FoS wrote:It's not even simple paranoia. There are a lot of fey in Tepest, and they are very dangerous. IMHO, that's one of the most interesting things about Tepest and the Inquisition--it's not that the Inquisition has evil motives.
And also worth noting that the general Nidalan populace lives in an oppressive society. No singing, no jewelry, no bright colors, etc. This is Elena's control freak nature. In constrast, Tepestani are downright jolly and live relatively free, albeit in fear of the fey, and perhaps in fear of being mistaken for a fealltoir.
It's the latter, IMHO. She know's there's no Banemaw, and she knows she's destroying villages, but she's convinced it's the will of Belenus and she is just being a good paladin by wiping out blasphemy.That's why I think the Inquisition and Elena are fundamentally very dissimilar. Elena knows that she, herself, is the real evil oppressor--or, if she's deep enough in denial to know that she's really good, that she's really the one destroying the villages she puts to "Banemaw's" tally.
Someone more controversial than I might make a comparison to certain overreactions to the very real threat of terrorism. Well meaning, and with good reason, but potentially dangerous. As opposed to Elena, who I would agree, is a textbook fascist, even if she doesn't see it.They've identified and are fighting a very real problem, but can they make themselves safe from the fey without destroying their society in the process?
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Whew. I'm not quite sure I want that kind of scary in my Ravenloft... let's let it lie for the moment.gonzoron wrote:Someone more controversial than I might make a comparison to certain overreactions to the very real threat of terrorism. Well meaning, and with good reason, but potentially dangerous. As opposed to Elena, who I would agree, is a textbook fascist, even if she doesn't see it.
All right. I'll buy into the idea that there's some differences here. I have to tell you, I really want my "Grimm fairytale" domain, even if Tepest isn't it. We're ditching the Shadow Rift; maybe I'll just write an alternative if we want Tepest to go to the Inquistion. I'll stick to my guns and insist that I'd like to see the three hags - or their big bad grandma, Baba Yaga - running the show.
But assuming we want the inquisition front and center, who's the new Darklord? Wyan doesn't seem to fit from what people are saying - he's too good. Who else could take that role?
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Whoops, in all my excitement about talking about the Inquisition, it seems I forgot to mention: I don't want the DL to be from the Inquisition.Irving the Meek wrote:All right. I'll buy into the idea that there's some differences here. I have to tell you, I really want my "Grimm fairytale" domain, even if Tepest isn't it. We're ditching the Shadow Rift; maybe I'll just write an alternative if we want Tepest to go to the Inquistion.
I agree with you that Tepest should be the "Grimm domain." And though I like the Inquisition being an aspect of it, The Inquisition should not be the whole domain, IMHO. The reason I started babbling about it is that I knew people would say: We were looking for a place to drop Elena, Tepest is the perfect fit. So that's why I tried to get into why Tepest is not a perfect fit for her, since the Tepestani Inquisition is different than hers...
So I haven't a clue who the best DL of the "Grimm domain" is, but I don't think it's Elena, and I don't think it's Wyan, and I think we can do better than the hags.
Hmm.....
What about the brothers Grimm themselves? Not exactly, of course, but in the same way that Mordenheim is Frankenstein, etc. Could the fairy tale domain have been built for a master storyteller? If so, what could his sin be?
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