the Falkovnian slave trade

[jamesfirecat]

There comes the slave raiding parties (if you go for them, I don't) and a few other things:
- The treaty came into effect IIRC after Drakov allied with Maloccio that rules much of Invidia politically.
- The treaty involves domains that 1. love intrigue or 2. have political leaders that aren't darklords (Mordent, Dementlieu).

I doubt Jaqueline is afraid of Talons at all. She can close the borders to stop an invading force much like Azalin did 5 times in a row and she doesn't strike me as someone that would care that much (prestige aside) for 6 talons skewering 15 peasants outside of her cities.
However, the opportunities presented by "the big bad bully" next door, are many. At times political entities even create phantom enemies to promote their agenda.

Dominic is IMO even more ruthless than this. Perhaps he sees the brooding class war in Dementlieu and thinks "Hmm... perhaps a force of Talons staking people would buy me some time. Let's provoke a war with Falkovnia." actually setting the ground for hundreds of people to die.

As of brilliant science\magic: Well, truth be told, despite everything I said and how I think world would work... I have the DP deliver insane sadistic and competent wizards and scientists to Falkovnia often. It's a game. I want them to have this stuff. I want a part of sewers being flooded with broken ones from failed man-animal chimera experiments.

I'm not sure you can count Dementlieu as having a political leader who isn't a Darklord. I mean the political leader himself is not the darklord, but he is brainwashed by the darklord to never disagree with him, so if the darklord had any sort of objection to the treaty then obviously it wouldn't have happened or at least not Dementlieu's involvement.

[jamesfirecat]

Agreed. But does Drakov know that? His army, as far as I know, never encountered this phenomenon (Azalin closing his borders) before. If that is true, then it's an ace in Azalin's sleeve to be sure.

For some reason I thought Azalin called up a wall of skulls to close his borders. Huh. I'm wrong.

Somebody does that though, don't they?

The wall of skulls is Yagno Petrovna from G'Henna, which Falkovnia did invade once, but they mainly failed there due to inhospitable terrain, starvation, and mongrelmen fighting with fanatical zeal in hope of earning Zhakata's favor and regaining their humanity.

[alhoon]

I'm not sure you can count Dementlieu as having a political leader who isn't a Darklord. I mean the political leader himself is not the darklord, but he is brainwashed by the darklord to never disagree with him, so if the darklord had any sort of objection to the treaty then obviously it wouldn't have happened or at least not Dementlieu's involvement.

Of course, but a "Threat of invasion" mentality, even if not so great, would be beneficial to Dominic, so he would have his lackey go for it anyway I think. And as mentioned in order to make the threat of invasion more plausible, Dominic strikes me as the kind of guy that would provoke a skirmish with the Talons.

The wall of skulls is Yagno Petrovna from G'Henna, which Falkovnia did invade once, but they mainly failed there due to inhospitable terrain, starvation, and mongrelmen fighting with fanatical zeal in hope of earning Zhakata's favor and regaining their humanity.

He didn't even bother closing the borders?

[ewancummins]

The Black Box (I think) states that Drakov encourages interbreeding between humans and nonhumans, but the customs of the people forbid that.
And that children with partial human heritage are property of the state.


I interpret this as Drakov wanting half-elf spies, night fighters, etc. Half-dwarves if he can breed them, for sappers and laborers.

[Five]

What muskets did is less get rid of the need for training but changed what kind of training was needed and sped up the training process. If all you do is hand some poor schlep a musket what you get is a poor schlep with a musket not a soldier. What it doesn't take is a lifetime of practice but a few weeks to be reasonably good.

This last bit got me thinking: those exact reasons applied to crossbows as well, only in regards to the longbow. So if Vlad doesn't have an issue with crossbows in the hands of his soldiers (he doesn't; it's the officers and Talons that carry longbows), then what's his issue with firearms?

Is it an oversight by the developers? Or is it a DM lead that Drakov's horseblinds are starting to loosen?

The Black Box (I think) states that Drakov encourages interbreeding between humans and nonhumans, but the customs of the people forbid that.
And that children with partial human heritage are property of the state.


I interpret this as Drakov wanting half-elf spies, night fighters, etc. Half-dwarves if he can breed them, for sappers and laborers.

Yeah, I forgot to throw that queer little tidbit out there. Drakov is seemingly a bit of a hypocrite, if not as you say pushing for unconventional units. That, or the War Machine he created is starting to slip away from his clutches. It's the one instance that I've read where the majority are written to somewhat stand against the man and his will.

"Drakov encourages human Falkovnians to mate with half-elves and quarter elves, so as to "breed out the taint". Unfortunately, Falkovnian custom forbids these inter-racial relationships, and thus far the state has not pushed the issue." - Gaz II, p. 102.

I could be reading into it though.

I say hypocrite for if he is truly against the "taint" of demi-humans then why bother keeping them around at all? Why have them as state property? Why not just stake them all and be done with it? There's apparently not enough of them for major public works, so what other use for them would there be? They may be used to supplement the human Falkovnian slaves, but outside of that I'm drawing blanks. Right now anyway.

Could he be playing the racist card and hitting all the key words and phrases to achieve but the opposite, in the hopes of developing human-looking soldiers with extended lifespans and nightvision? Is he mentally capable of such a thing? He is written to be very charismatic. And he, of all people, would fully understand the depravities and sometimes insubordinate streaks that idle soldiers can develop...

Good call.

[divinedragonslayer]

What muskets did is less get rid of the need for training but changed what kind of training was needed and sped up the training process. If all you do is hand some poor schlep a musket what you get is a poor schlep with a musket not a soldier. What it doesn't take is a lifetime of practice but a few weeks to be reasonably good.

This last bit got me thinking: those exact reasons applied to crossbows as well, only in regards to the longbow. So if Vlad doesn't have an issue with crossbows in the hands of his soldiers (he doesn't; it's the officers and Talons that carry longbows), then what's his issue with firearms?

Is it an oversight by the developers? Or is it a DM lead that Drakov's horseblinds are starting to loosen?

I've been thinking heavily about this myself lately. I think that while he's in control and his will is absolute people under him are cambering for his respect and attention. This leads to some things that might go against his will. Such as firearms and gunpowder being used in the ministry of science. Or the Ministry of Arcane having a small to mid sized squad of female/demi human battle mages. This goes against everything Drakov stands for. Yet for them the goals end up justifying the means.

As for the slave trade itself. I'd say it's rather high in the fact that there are a lot of demi humans in the slave trade. But they're in the camps and military possession. Most slaves seen by the public would actually be human slaves I think. But that's just my humble opinion.

[jamesfirecat]

This last bit got me thinking: those exact reasons applied to crossbows as well, only in regards to the longbow. So if Vlad doesn't have an issue with crossbows in the hands of his soldiers (he doesn't; it's the officers and Talons that carry longbows), then what's his issue with firearms?

Is it an oversight by the developers? Or is it a DM lead that Drakov's horseblinds are starting to loosen?

I'm going to give the same sort of answer about guns that is given in Terry Pratchett's works.

A crossbow is a device that stores up human muscle energy (the energy used to pull the string taut) to be released later. A gun is a weapon that uses CHEMICAL energy on command.

Vlad probably hates guns more than he hates crossbows because there is inherently something "otherworldy" something "mystical" about the firearm.

Also keep the following in mind please.

Vlad comes from Krynn.

There are no firearms in Krynn, while there are crossbows. The moment that Vlad accepts Firearms, he's accepting that the people of Ravenloft, have created a superior weapon for making war than he or the people of his own homeworld have ever been able to make.

So while reducing the amount of training needed is part of the reason that Vlad hates guns, another part is that they're something new and different and if huge blocks of infantry with horsemen to harry the flanks was good enough on Krynn then by the non existence gods it'll be good enough here!

Yeah, I forgot to throw that queer little tidbit out there. Drakov is seemingly a bit of a hypocrite, if not as you say pushing for unconventional units. That, or the War Machine he created is starting to slip away from his clutches. It's the one instance that I've read where the majority are written to somewhat stand against the man and his will.

"Drakov encourages human Falkovnians to mate with half-elves and quarter elves, so as to "breed out the taint". Unfortunately, Falkovnian custom forbids these inter-racial relationships, and thus far the state has not pushed the issue." - Gaz II, p. 102.

I could be reading into it though.

I say hypocrite for if he is truly against the "taint" of demi-humans then why bother keeping them around at all? Why have them as state property? Why not just stake them all and be done with it? There's apparently not enough of them for major public works, so what other use for them would there be? They may be used to supplement the human Falkovnian slaves, but outside of that I'm drawing blanks. Right now anyway.

Could he be playing the racist card and hitting all the key words and phrases to achieve but the opposite, in the hopes of developing human-looking soldiers with extended lifespans and nightvision? Is he mentally capable of such a thing? He is written to be very charismatic. And he, of all people, would fully understand the depravities and sometimes insubordinate streaks that idle soldiers can develop...

Vlad wants humans to mate with demi-humans as a way to breed out the taint.

He's a racist, and he uses elves and dwarves and so on for slave labor, but he hasn't ever hit on the idea of exterminating them entirely/genocide. Instead he'd prefer to get rid of them by constantly breeding them with humans until the end result has so little elf/dwarf/whatever blood in it that you can't tell the difference from baseline humans.

It isn't about special units that can fight at night, he has the "Sandmen" for that situation, and it isn't about people with superhuman abilities, he has the Primal Serum for that, it is about what he says it is about, racisim.

"When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”
― Maya Angelou


The reason he hasn't simply murdered all the demi-humans is because they're more useful dead than alive, look at how much war effort got actively wasted committing genocide by the Nazis, and its obvious that this is one of the few areas where Vlad has actually come to a reasonable(ish) decision.

Or maybe he fears that an open genocide of demi-humans would unite all the demi-humans of the core against him to a point that they'd actually start to do something... the elves of Sithicus mostly sit around and mope, but an open genocide would probably bring them into the Invidian civil war on Gabrielle's side as a way of punishing Falkovnia for their actions.


At least that is my argument, but then I tend to favor the "What explanation will make Darkov suffer the most/make him look like the biggest idiot" explanation to most things.

[Five]

I've been thinking heavily about this myself lately. I think that while he's in control and his will is absolute people under him are cambering for his respect and attention. This leads to some things that might go against his will. Such as firearms and gunpowder being used in the ministry of science. Or the Ministry of Arcane having a small to mid sized squad of female/demi human battle mages. This goes against everything Drakov stands for. Yet for them the goals end up justifying the means.

As for the slave trade itself. I'd say it's rather high in the fact that there are a lot of demi humans in the slave trade. But they're in the camps and military possession. Most slaves seen by the public would actually be human slaves I think. But that's just my humble opinion.

Both good points.

So the demi-human slaves would be viewed more as military trophies than as anything else...?

So if these "indie" battle mages and musketeers are deployed and achieve mission success, would Vlad start to see the value in them (maybe after a few more "trial runs"), would he make an example of them for insubordination, or would he dismiss them entirely as fluke?

Or, would their mission status (and existence) be a deep dark secret for the outside-the-box CO?

[ewancummins]

RE Guns


No guns show up in the Black Box. Troops are listed for numerous domains.

A few guns (few or no cannon, though) do show up in modules later, but it isn't until Domains of Dread (hardback) that guns are added to Ravenloft as a typical feature of several domains.
Mordent and other domains nearby went from bows, maces, and all that to pretty advanced firearms. Falkovnia did not get the same upgrade.

Drakov being anti-gun is a 3E invention, so far as I can tell, created to explain why Falkovnia's armies do not use "modern" technology. It never made in-game sense to me.

I could see him outlawing the private ownership of guns, and monopolizing production of gunpowder. But why would he be so adamant against the technology? Unless he considers gunpowder a kind of magic, and he is deeply supiscious of Magic. But that suggests ditching the Minstry of the Arcane stuff.


But that is only my personal view.
Your Drakov may vary.

[Five]

I'm going to give the same sort of answer about guns that is given in Terry Pratchett's works.

A crossbow is a device that stores up human muscle energy (the energy used to pull the string taut) to be released later. A gun is a weapon that uses CHEMICAL energy on command.

Vlad probably hates guns more than he hates crossbows because there is inherently something "otherworldy" something "mystical" about the firearm.

His views on magic are starting to change though, so embracing a man-made weapon, even one that may reduce his inner mind's view of the fighting man, might be an easier pill for him to swallow...

Also keep the following in mind please.

Vlad comes from Krynn.

There are no firearms in Krynn, while there are crossbows. The moment that Vlad accepts Firearms, he's accepting that the people of Ravenloft, have created a superior weapon for making war than he or the people of his own homeworld have ever been able to make.

So while reducing the amount of training needed is part of the reason that Vlad hates guns, another part is that they're something new and different and if huge blocks of infantry with horsemen to harry the flanks was good enough on Krynn then by the non existence gods it'll be good enough here!

That's a good argument against.

Vlad wants humans to mate with demi-humans as a way to breed out the taint.

He's a racist, and he uses elves and dwarves and so on for slave labor, but he hasn't ever hit on the idea of exterminating them entirely/genocide. Instead he'd prefer to get rid of them by constantly breeding them with humans until the end result has so little elf/dwarf/whatever blood in it that you can't tell the difference from baseline humans.

It isn't about special units that can fight at night, he has the "Sandmen" for that situation, and it isn't about people with superhuman abilities, he has the Primal Serum for that, it is about what he says it is about, racisim.

It only makes sense to read things for what they are. Sometimes. haha

Seriously though.

The reason he hasn't simply murdered all the demi-humans is because they're more useful dead than alive, look at how much war effort got actively wasted committing genocide by the Nazis, and its obvious that this is one of the few areas where Vlad has actually come to a reasonable(ish) decision.

Or maybe he fears that an open genocide of demi-humans would unite all the demi-humans of the core against him to a point that they'd actually start to do something... the elves of Sithicus mostly sit around and mope, but an open genocide would probably bring them into the Invidian civil war on Gabrielle's side as a way of punishing Falkovnia for their actions.

Would you put it beyond Drakov to try and create a situation in which the enemy would come to him?

Muck diplomacy, muck the Core, muck the world. You think you can stop me? Let's do this. No? Then I'm going to bag all of your leaders, all of your priests, all of your mothers, all of your children, and ask you again. Do you really think you can stop me?

Begin mass impalement and human rotisseries at the borders.

Just curious.

And no, I wouldn't really play out the above scenario at my table. Just fun banter is all.

[jamesfirecat]

Would you put it beyond Drakov to try and create a situation in which the enemy would come to him?

Muck diplomacy, muck the Core, muck the world. You think you can stop me? Let's do this. No? Then I'm going to bag all of your leaders, all of your priests, all of your mothers, all of your children, and ask you again. Do you really think you can stop me?

Begin mass impalement and human rotisseries at the borders.

Just curious.

And no, I wouldn't really play out the above scenario at my table. Just fun banter is all.

When Darkov is getting on in years even with his decreased aging and enhanced physique, I can very much see him trying to seriously upend the table before he goes down beneath the reaper's scythe so that at least he can die like a soldier in battle rather than a coward in bed.

He probably won't do it through elf genocide though, he'll probably do it via finally realizing (or paying attention when someone tries to tell him) what an important resource Falkovnian grain is, and accepting the payment from the nations of the Four Towers, then not delivering any grain to them and daring them to come and take it.

At that point it becomes an issue of just how much does Darkon/Azalin hate Vlad. Because if Darkon decides to join up with the treaty of the Four Towers, they will crush Falkovnia in a vice, and if the War Against Azalin is accurate then Azalin can control the dead of Darkon even in other nations (IE can raise undead and walk them across the border into Falkovnia to fight, they don't have to be a purely defensive force) which combined with fearless troops from Dominic, superhuman troops from Jacqueline and some of the worlds best assassins from Ivana, could set the stage for taking apart Drakov's armies in any open field battle.

[divinedragonslayer]

I've been thinking heavily about this myself lately. I think that while he's in control and his will is absolute people under him are cambering for his respect and attention. This leads to some things that might go against his will. Such as firearms and gunpowder being used in the ministry of science. Or the Ministry of Arcane having a small to mid sized squad of female/demi human battle mages. This goes against everything Drakov stands for. Yet for them the goals end up justifying the means.

As for the slave trade itself. I'd say it's rather high in the fact that there are a lot of demi humans in the slave trade. But they're in the camps and military possession. Most slaves seen by the public would actually be human slaves I think. But that's just my humble opinion.

Both good points.

So the demi-human slaves would be viewed more as military trophies than as anything else...?

So if these "indie" battle mages and musketeers are deployed and achieve mission success, would Vlad start to see the value in them (maybe after a few more "trial runs"), would he make an example of them for insubordination, or would he dismiss them entirely as fluke?

Or, would their mission status (and existence) be a deep dark secret for the outside-the-box CO?

In my humble opinion Drakov keeps them in work camps isolated from the general populous. To be honest I don't think you'd want to general populous to be around them unless the populous starts sympathizing with them. I don't know how many human slaves there are, but I'm sure there's quite a few floating around. Especially foreigners.

From what I understand he sees both magic and firearms being weapons for cowards. Thus I feel on the whole battles that use these are either more clandestine or summarily dismissed of any merit. That's not to say that certain people don't use them. Either to further their careers without Drakov's blessings or because their own ambitions do not directly involve Drakov in the first place. In this case I think in the Ministries of Science, Intelligence, and Arcane what Drakov doesn't know can't hurt him.

[alhoon]

Unless he considers gunpowder a kind of magic, and he is deeply supiscious of Magic. But that suggests ditching the Minstry of the Arcane stuff.

That seems fishy to me, more than guns. I can understand his revulsion for guns. They're anti-romantic. They're coward's weapon to kill better trained and armored guy. They cut the requirement for physical strength. Etc etc etc.

But "deeply suspicious of magic" doesn't mess well with Material. We have Talons going through magical rituals, and possessing tons of magic items. Thousands of them. In death unchained there are literally 3000-4000 +1 weapons in the hands of the Talons of Lekar. There are 800-1000 swords of wounding and other weapons. In 3E talons are fewer but they have those magic bracers and have undergone rituals that give them SR.
That's not suspicion about magic. That's an extremely high magic army.

[divinedragonslayer]

With the magic weapons and items it's to enhance the strength of the warrior. Magic itself is used by old white bearded people to again kill the more skilled more armored opponent.

[jamesfirecat]

But "deeply suspicious of magic" doesn't mess well with Material. We have Talons going through magical rituals, and possessing tons of magic items. Thousands of them. In death unchained there are literally 3000-4000 +1 weapons in the hands of the Talons of Lekar. There are 800-1000 swords of wounding and other weapons. In 3E talons are fewer but they have those magic bracers and have undergone rituals that give them SR.
That's not suspicion about magic. That's an extremely high magic army.

Vlad is suspicious of magic as a directly wielded force when it comes to battle.

He hates that "nerds" in robes get to walk out onto the battlefield flip a few pages in a book, and then wipe out huge swathes of men with fire/lightining/ice/earthquakes/whatever.

He's fine with magic applied as a steroid to help real manly career soldiers fight better/IE enchanted weapons/armor.

Magic when directly applied to warfare (ie having people casting high powered spells) is the utlimate in anti-romantic effect for the same reason as no one has ever said anything romantic about artillery fire.

There's no glory in battle when one side can just wipe the other out without ever needing to even cross weapons /get close enough to risk their lives (and of course they'll have magic anti-arrow spells if you try to snipe them with more honest weapons).