Mordent and Dementlieu timeline question

[ewancummins]

This one is related to the "aging out" thread.


If Germain D'Honaire, the mesmerist, is alive and active in Mordentshire as of 579 (module I10, he's an NPC), why does the Black Box show his year of birth as 634?

Was this ever retconned?

I'm tempted to move his birth year back to 534, making him 45 years old when the two Strahds and Azalin are messing about in Mordentshire.


That would make Dominic D'Honaire a century older! He quite probably has died of old age, assuming nothing else killed him and the Dark Powers don't interfere.
Being consistent, it would also imply that Dementlieu formed in 607, not 707.
Yay, another hundred years of real history.


So, maybe this variation of Dementlieu is controlled by a new darklord, who battles the Living Brain?

The new darklord could very well be a D'Honaire.
But maybe this one has somewhat different goals and a different curse?

[ewancummins]

Further thoughts-


I am doing this for a new Ravenloft game if I start one.

And I won't reveal in public who the new darklord is. I might develop a few possibilities and share those for feedback, but I won't say which one (if any) I am actually choosing. This way, even my players who read these public forums won't really know who the darklord of Dementlieu is.
I like that. It makes for better intrigue if the players don't have this important piece of player knowledge.

YMMV

[The Lesser Evil]

Hmm, well if you dialed back Dominic's birth far enough of the way back (and somehow had him exist in some form to this day), it would make Mad Lord Kalen's legacy make a lot more sense.

http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Mad_Lord_Kalen

[ewancummins]

Hmm, well if you dialed back Dominic's birth far enough of the way back (and somehow had him exist in some form to this day), it would make Mad Lord Kalen's legacy make a lot more sense.

http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Mad_Lord_Kalen

Yeah!

I like that.

Dread Possibility One: warning Dune spoiler

VIEW CONTENT:

Maybe Dominic survives the way a certain baddie in the Dune series survives, as a hereditary memory/personality embedded in/lurking in one of his descendants/relatives?
And a female one, no less...

[ewancummins]

RE Mad Lord Kalen:


I don't have Heroes of Light.

Cheating by reading ''lived 200 years ago'' as born 200 years ago, Mad Lord Kalen would have been born 200 years minus the GAZ Dates.
What is that, 560?

So he'd be in his forties when Dominic was born. By the time Dominic was in his twenties, the Mad Lord would be in his sixties.
That actually works. Kalen was an old aristocrat, upright and virtuous, angered by corruption and working against a clever young man he saw as a dangerous political interloper of foreign origin.

[ewancummins]

On an tangential note, I'm considering adopting the domain 'magic rating' rules from the RLPHB if I start a new 3E game.

And I think I'd set Mordent as a 2 and Dementlieu at a 1.

D'Honaire's abilities are explicitly not spell-casting after all. They are supposed to be mesmerism with effects similar to spells cast by an enchanter.
Really, in some ways he's closer to being a psionicist (telepath).

His grandfather, who I'm guessing was a big influence on him at least in the ways of mesmerism and the study of the human psyche, was skeptical about ghosts and other such supernatural things.
That's noted in I10.

Also, Dementlieu seems largely free of supernatural monsters.

All that makes Demenrlieu sound like a good candidate for a MR 1 domain.

I recall that the GAZ has enchanters and illusionists as open parts of society. I'd dispense with that in my alt-canon. Dominic seems cooler to me if his influence/control powers are unusual in his domain.

Stage magicians mostly would be experts or rogues in 3e terms. Some real illusionists could be in the mix. Ever see Lord of Illusions?

[The Lesser Evil]

Another interesting feather to put into yer cap is that of the Living Brain could also be much older than is commonly acknowledged. Check out the following quote:
"The Living Brain is a horrible result of Victor Mordenheim's early experiments in the creation and artificial sustenance of life."
-MC I & II p.72

Now, if one were to take "the creation of life" as to mean making Adam (rather than say, the resurrection of existing living tissue, this would make the creation of the Brain as coming before Adam. The formation of Lamordia as a domain could be 575 BC at the earliest.*

So we could have a timeline of the Brain coming some time before Adam coming some time before Lamordia
the Brain->Adam->Lamordia as a domain (575 BC)
Now here is where we come to a much earlier Dementlieu: A year or two after the Brain is created, Alexis Wilhaven steals a boat and takes it to Dementlieu (which doesn't form in canon until 707 BC)**

*That's the date when Domains of Dread attributes it forming, but not as part of the Core. DoD doesn't Lamordia join the Core until 683 BC. Third Edition retconned the year of formation (not merely the year of joining the Core) to 683 BC for various and sundry reasons.
**To make sense of this in our "older than canon" world, we have to think about how somebody able to travel somewhere pre-Lamordia domain to Pre-Dementlieu as a domain, that would mean that Lamordia and Dementlieu came from the same prime material world, which in turn would mean that Mordent and Lamordia would have to have come from the same prime material world.

[ewancummins]

Another interesting feather to put into yer cap is that of the Living Brain could also be much older than is commonly acknowledged. Check out the following quote:
"The Living Brain is a horrible result of Victor Mordenheim's early experiments in the creation and artificial sustenance of life."
-MC I & II p.72

Now, if one were to take "the creation of life" as to mean making Adam (rather than say, the resurrection of existing living tissue, this would make the creation of the Brain as coming before Adam. The formation of Lamordia as a domain could be 575 BC at the earliest.*

So we could have a timeline of the Brain coming some time before Adam coming some time before Lamordia
the Brain->Adam->Lamordia as a domain (575 BC)
Now here is where we come to a much earlier Dementlieu: A year or two after the Brain is created, Alexis Wilhaven steals a boat and takes it to Dementlieu (which doesn't form in canon until 707 BC)**

*That's the date when Domains of Dread attributes it forming, but not as part of the Core. DoD doesn't Lamordia join the Core until 683 BC. Third Edition retconned the year of formation (not merely the year of joining the Core) to 683 BC for various and sundry reasons.
**To make sense of this in our "older than canon" world, we have to think about how somebody able to travel somewhere pre-Lamordia domain to Pre-Dementlieu as a domain, that would mean that Lamordia and Dementlieu came from the same prime material world, which in turn would mean that Mordent and Lamordia would have to have come from the same prime material world.

Interestingly enough, the Black Box doesn't seem to give a date for when Lamordia enters or forms.
It does state that Dr. Mordenheim is 34 years old.
Now, we could read that as he looks 34, and that the generation ability he has through his link with Adam keeps him young (this becomes canon, later, as I recall). But if taken literally, it suggests Lamordia is a very recently formed domain.


Doesn't the Book of Crypts adventure, Mordenheim's Bride, involve his niece or a cousin looking for Elise? That would seem to back up the recent formation idea.
Maybe I'm not remembering this correctly.

Of course, this clashes with later canon.

edit: I HAVE CONSOLIDATED SOME POSTS.


I double-checked.

He married Elise at 21.
13 years later he creates Adam.
21+13= 34.

Meaning Lamordia just appeared, as of the Black Box date of 735, unless there's some weird temporal distortion stuff going on or we are supposed to read 'is 34' as 'stopped aging at 34."

The niece:

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki ... randthofen
She escaped from the Demiplane but returned.

I suppose she could have time-travelled going through the Mists.

Or was Lamordia was originally conceived as a recently formed domain, and later given a longer history?

[The Lesser Evil]

On an tangential note, I'm considering adopting the domain 'magic rating' rules from the RLPHB if I start a new 3E game.
And I think I'd set Mordent as a 2 and Dementlieu at a 1.
D'Honaire's abilities are explicitly not spell-casting after all. They are supposed to be mesmerism with effects similar to spells cast by an enchanter.
Really, in some ways he's closer to being a psionicist (telepath).
His grandfather, who I'm guessing was a big influence on him at least in the ways of mesmerism and the study of the human psyche, was skeptical about ghosts and other such supernatural things.
That's noted in I10.
Also, Dementlieu seems largely free of supernatural monsters.
All that makes Demenrlieu sound like a good candidate for a MR 1 domain.
I recall that the GAZ has enchanters and illusionists as open parts of society. I'd dispense with that in my alt-canon. Dominic seems cooler to me if his influence/control powers are unusual in his domain.
Stage magicians mostly would be experts or rogues in 3e terms. Some real illusionists could be in the mix. Ever see Lord of Illusions?

Generally, I'm in favor of a magical Dementlieu because it gives it a fairly unique flavor as far as modern domains go. (The present but easily dismissed theme is uncommon.) It also makes the domain subtly versatile (see my monster justifications below). A background of magic is also (for me) hard-coded into many of the Dementlieuse institutions: the University of Dementlieu (and the Fraternity of Shadows), the Dementlieuse Branch of the Church of Ezra (esoteric and metaphysical knowledge), and La Société de Legerdemain (the latter of which has a cover as a mundane entertainer racket and an Obedient)

Monsters, Black Box had kobolds, goblins, sahuagin, doppelganger, and kelpies. I guess the latter two could qualify as "supernatural monsters". Aquatic monsters could also mentioned (which might include reavers and sea spawn as in the Gaz.) Given the perchance for manipulation, mesmerism, repression, and general skullduggery, I would think a lot of latent, negative psychic energy would manifest in the forms of various incorporeal undead*, fitting the mental focus of the undead. The self-absorption of the domain would also make me tend to think that it would allow for a lot of creations of Dread Constructs, such as the wax golems of Alexander du Circe.

As far as magic levels and psionics go, I'm not sure I'd see the point of having a magic level and then have psionics be unaffected by it, unless you were trying to shift it such that psionics were the primary method of "magic" in the domain.

*not so much the common "I attack you and drain levels/ability score points" but more subtle ghosts, haunts, odems, geists and the like

[ewancummins]

RE: Magic Rating, Dementlieu

VIEW CONTENT:

I do note that both the kelpies and the doppelgangers are listed in the BB as rare monsters in Dementlieu). And both are living, corporeal creatures. The kelpies are actually intelligent plants that change shape and have a charm power. They aren't fairies or ghosts.

But, hey, there's more than one way to do this stuff. I agree with you that a high magic, high tech Dementlieu can be cool. I'm not knocking the GAZ version, which is built on 2E lore.
I'm kicking around an alternate, basically.

RE Living Brain backstory:

I just re-read the Living Brain entry. It’s confusing/inconsistent in terms of its chronological implications, but I agree with you that the text strongly implies that Mordenheim created the Living Brain before he made Adam.

It also seems to imply that Dementlieu existed as a prime material country on the same plane as Lamordia (and Mordent, since we know Germain D'Honaire lived in Mordentshire.)


TANGENT: Germain D'Honaire

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I suppose it's possible that Mordentshire and this possible prime planar Dementlieu weren't part of the same world, even if we assume the text of the Living Brain entry is essentially correct. Maybe the mesmerist Germain was a world hopper. Maybe he had such skeptical attitudes about certain supernatural things result of growing up on a lower magic alternate prime, where magic worked but was weaker and less common, and ghosts and such were very rare indeed? The world of Lamordia and ur-Dementlieu!
He may have reached Mordentshire by esoteric means, the way the PCs in I10 might travel between Mordentshire and Barovia.
The fevre dream...

Germain is an odd character.
Was he an eccentric mesmerist or was he an ''Illuminated'' Comte Saint Germain type figure?

[The Lesser Evil]

RE: Magic Rating, Dementlieu

VIEW CONTENT:

I do note that both the kelpies and the doppelgangers are listed in the BB as rare monsters in Dementlieu). And both are living, corporeal creatures. The kelpies are actually intelligent plants that change shape and have a charm power. They aren't fairies or ghosts.

But, hey, there's more than one way to do this stuff. I agree with you that a high magic, high tech Dementlieu can be cool. I'm not knocking the GAZ version, which is built on 2E lore.
I'm kicking around an alternate, basically.

Oh yeah, not meeting to stamp on your toes, sorry. If you adopted the magic rating rules and general lower magic image, perhaps might have some "wellsprings of weirdness" where magic was a little bit more powerful/present in some places than others? The old, crumbling churches of Ezra like the Sainted Mother of Tears for instance. All those twisting secret passages, you could delve into the secret passage and twisty labyrinth pop culture, mythology, and folklore. Ley lines too.

Perhaps the stage is where magic got its start in modern Dementlieu because the stage is where the suspension of disbelief is a little bit more lenient than other places?

Germain is an odd character.
Was he an eccentric mesmerist or was he an ''Illuminated'' Comte Saint Germain type figure?[/spoiler]

There's no reason he can't be both. In some realms of belief, the occult involved not so much working with the exterior world but rather a change of mindset. Jungian analysis of alchemy, for example, argues that alchemy was about changing the alchemist's internal/mental state. For dimensional travel, consider patterning something after the Harold Shea stories (link below)
where a psychologist switches into different universes by aligning his logic and mindsets with them. Magical realism via magical thinking, as it were.

In fact, if we go with the mind's eye/perception can warp reality, we could explain a lot of the discrepancies of Ravenloft's history as various mesmerists "hoodwinking" us into accepting changed timelines while at the same time hiding other timelines from us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shea

[ewancummins]

I've been meaning to read those books (Shea) for years, and have never quite gotten around to doing so.

RE: Variable MR within a domain

Yeah, I'd probably mix up the MRs a bit. Maybe clerical magic is higher MR in the old churches in Dementlieu.
I like the stuff about the stage and suspension of disbelief.

In Mordent, magic may be weak in towns like Mordensthire, but stronger in haunted houses and the spooky backcountry.

The RPPHB seems to suggest as much.

Ditto for Lamordia.

[thekristhomas]

I always thought D'honaire v the Brain to be a fairly static setup, they're quite evenly matched at the status quo, D'Honaire can't get operatives any closer to the Brain and the Brain can't really expand without risking his established territory. My thoughts would be to add a third player, Madame Guilotte, bonnet waring firebrand and preacher of revolutione, the two faction leaders will attempt to use her against the foe, but curiously their normal methods fail. The "men" are faced with serious problem will they be able to realise that Madame is not trying to take over the domain, simply trying to make it burn.

[The Lesser Evil]

I always thought D'honaire v the Brain to be a fairly static setup, they're quite evenly matched at the status quo, D'Honaire can't get operatives any closer to the Brain and the Brain can't really expand without risking his established territory. My thoughts would be to add a third player, Madame Guilotte, bonnet waring firebrand and preacher of revolutione, the two faction leaders will attempt to use her against the foe, but curiously their normal methods fail. The "men" are faced with serious problem will they be able to realise that Madame is not trying to take over the domain, simply trying to make it burn.

They do have something of a (potential) third player in the form of Councilor Helene DuSuis
http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Cou ... %A8_DuSuis

though somebody wanting to make it burn might be an interesting twist. When you say "firebrand" and "preacher", that makes em think, having a religious devotion and moral reason to see everything all go up in smoke is fun as well.

[Strahdsbuddy]

On an tangential note, I'm considering adopting the domain 'magic rating' rules from the RLPHB if I start a new 3E game.

And I think I'd set Mordent as a 2 and Dementlieu at a 1.

In My campaign, which takes place in Mordent before it is dragged into the Mists, Mordent is absolutely a MR1, and the most terrifying parts are this boring lost colony being overrun by the supernatural. I play pretty low magic anyway, but I have never needed serious spell-casting in Dementlieu. The people are scary enough, and Dominic would certainly be all the more creepy for being so different from the populace.