Ravenloft System Pros/Cons

[Lost Heretic]

I want to run Ravenloft this Spring but there are a lot of systems to choose from. There's two main editions to Ravenloft (2nd and 3rd), a handy 4th edition conversion, and I'm sure other hacks floating around the 'net.

I'd like everyone's thoughts on the various systems (I'll compile them in this first post).

Dungeons and Dragons Rule Sets

2nd Edition
Pro:

• Tons of published material, including many modules
• More dangerous combat than 3rd or 4th. Simple combat system - elegant in it's simplicity.
• Simplest classes, easiest character creation. Differing class complexity - Wizard becomes very powerful, complicated. (Note, Wizards advance slower) (Post #160152)
• Ravenloft books are fairly common.

Con:

• Awkward percentile thief skills.
• Jury rigged proficiency system.
• Maximum class levels based on race.

3rd Edition
Pro:

• Core rules available online at http://www.d20srd.org (Post #160127)
• Very compatible with Pathfinder (use http://www.d20pfsrd.com) (Post #160127)
• Outstandingly written fluff in White Wolf books.
• More streamlined and intuitive d20 mechanic that ties skills and combat together.
• A plethora of d20 material to tap into for ideas outside Ravenloft.
• Most of the FoS material is 3rd/3.5, including fan adventures.

Con:

• Derpy skill progression.
• Feat creep if you include extra supplements, otherwise there is only one optimal selection of feats for most classes. (Note, Pathfinder provides more options for feat paths) (Post #160142)
• White Wolf rules were not always the best. (Example, missing/vague rules in d20 Masque of the Red Death) (use http://www.d20pfsrd.com) (Post #160127)
• No modules, few prewritten adventures.
• Combat system optimized with miniatures. (Post #160846)

4th Edition
Pro:

• Similar system to 3rd, monsters can be reworked without too much effort.
• Classes balanced with each other.
• Convenient conversion documents on the FoS.

Con:

• Combat focus, did they ever release those social combat rules?
• Combat system optimized with miniatures. (Post #160846)
• No true Ravenloft material, just a few scattered articles and tid bits. Official Ravenloft Campaign Setting shelved.

Fantasy Rule Sets

Burning Wheel
Pro:

• Sweet social combat rules.
• Very deadly combat system.

Con:

• Current rules designed for High Fantasy.
• No conversion guide that I'm aware of.

Legend of the Five Rings
Pro:

• Dion has a conversion. (Post #160888)
• Includes non-combat classes: Courtier and Artisan. Very easy to convert your own classes. (Post #160888)

Con:

• Eastern theme may require reskinning for Core domains.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Pro:

• Class based model.
• Gritty, realistic combat. Itemized magic system.
• Madness mechanics.

Con:

• No conversion.
• 3rd edition is very difficult to reskin due to board game element (cards, special dice, etc).

Gothic/Horror Rule Sets

World of Darkness
Pro:

• Generic horror you can apply templates to.
• Points based character generation. (Post #160139)
• Plethora of horror material (Including various Rome and Dark Age supplements).
• Dion made a conversion in the past. (Post #160126)

Con:

• Simple but breakable combat system. Better in NWoD.
• Freeform magic system.

Call of Cthulhu
Pro:

• Simple percentile game system with special advancement rules. Almost all actions skill based.
• Harsh combat rules. Itemized magic system.
• Focused on horror, detailed madness and mental effects. (Post #160139)
• Cthulhu Dark Ages supplement available.

Con:

• No conversion available.

Universal Rule Sets

GURPS
Pro:

• Universal system, supports GM tinkering
• By default, supports harsh combat, skill-based spells, points-buy and PC customization. All can be tweaked to some degree. GMs and PCs can easily work together to develop a character's profession without having to worry about balance in house rules.
• huge flexibility in designing monsters, npcs, etc.
• supplement books are highly respected and their literature research is useful even for non-GURPS systems. (Specifically recommended: Horror, Mysteries, Low-tech, Social Engineering, Thaumatology.)
• GURPS conversion by HuManBing (Post #160141)

Con:

• Universal system, so the GM will have to familiarize players with the system and then familiarize them with his personal tweaks to it.
• GM has a lot of work to do, to pare away the rules that have no place in his campaign. Understanding of probabilities helps a lot too.
• More suitable for players who are more accustomed to customizing their characters, rather than following preset progression paths.

Please give your opinions, suggestions, and let us know where to find other conversions!

[herkles]

Have you thought of using either BRP or savage worlds. BRP in particular seems to fit Ravenloft like a glove and it is what i plan to use when I run ravenloft eventually.

[Blot]

Has no one done an nWoD conversion? If that's the case then that surprises me... and also gives me my next project...

Of the above my prefered system would be 2nd Ed using the Arthaus materials for support. As a teenager I always found that THAC0 had an elegant simplicity... and the simpler your systems are then the less the players need to break character.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

Has no one done an nWoD conversion?

I did, but that was a long time ago. It's somewhere here in the Forums, just can't seem to find it at the moment.

[The Giamarga]

3rd Edition
Pro:

• Outstandingly written White Wolf books.(1)
• More streamlined and intuitive d20 mechanic that ties skills and combat together.
• A plethora of d20 material to tap into for ideas outside Ravenloft.
• Most of the FoS material is 3rd/3.5

Con:

• Derpy skill progression.
• Feat creep if you include extra supplements, otherwise there is only one optimal selection of feats for most classes.(2)
• No modules, few prewritten adventures.(3)

(1) Well outstanding fluff for most of the books. Crunch is another thing. And there were some bad eggs too in the WW line...
(2) debatable, also who cares about optimal.
(3) There are fan adventures available for 3E and partial conversions of many 2E NPCs and modules.

I'd add
Pro:

• core rules available online at www.d20srd.org

Also many run in Pathfinder (aka 3.75) these days, where the same pros apply (use www.d20pfsrd.com), but you get a lot of fixes for the system.


In the end it depends on what you (and your players) want your game to be like mechanically.

[lostboy]

Its a bit tangential but WW relaeased Monte Cooks WoD which essentially converts nWoD (vampires, wraiths, werewolves etc) to D20. It doesn't tell you how the conversion is done but it shows a D20 version of nWoD, so I'm sure it can't be that difficult to emulate in your own homebrew.

And as its WW its available at Drive Thru RPG as a pdf - http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_i ... s_id=50229

Honestly though unless your in love with WoD its probably just worth taking the fluff to your prefered RPG rather than converting the mechanics.

[HuManBing]

This was my own list from 2008 when I was shopping around for game systems. Note that this is not a commentary on the systems' objective merits so much as a search for a system that subjectively suited me. As always, your mileage may vary. A lot.

HERO System:

Everything in one .pdf, everything based on d6 rolls. Very modular character design, with a wide variety of powers available. But appears to be narrowly focused on superhero type adventures, though. Not easily translatableto DnD typegames.

Star Frontiers:

Everything seems based on d% rolls. Character design and progression are points-based, giving a lot of flexibility. Appears to be narrowly focused on science fiction space opera games.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay:

Has the same sort of class-based model that DnD does, which I'd rather break away from. Combat is much grittier and realistic.

And now for the strongest contenders.

TriStat dX:

Character generation is points based. XP goes directly to buy new pointsfor advancement and there is much flexibility. Opposed rolls. No magic system (though it's customizable). No mental effectssystem (though it's customizable).

World of Darkness:

Chargen points based. d10 system. XP goes to buy advancement points. Magic is possible. Narrowly focussed on horror and supernatural play.

Call of Cthulhu:

d% No chargen points. Advancement points are special, based on level of skills and which ones you've used. Excellent rules for harsh combat. Excellent rules for madness and mental effects.

GURPS:

3d6 (bell curve) Chargen points. Advancement points. Opposed rolls. Magic as skills. Harsh combat. Madness and mental effects. Versatile - can be used for many other campaign settings.

And just for comparison'ssake, DnD 3rd
d20 No chargen. No advancement points. Yes opposed rolls. Yes magic (though spell slot reliant, i.e. arbitrary) No harsh combat Madness and mental effects (Ravenloft only).

I was undecided over whether to go for a specifically Gothic system or to get a more universal system. In the end, the latter won out. I still have a very high opinion of GURPS as used for Ravenloft, although it does require significant decision making on the part of the GM. This is generally the case with universal systems anyway.

If your sole concern is finding a dedicated system for Gothic horror, some of the other finalists may be better. I had a very high opinion of Call of Cthulhu as well.

[HuManBing]

Oh, to summarize GURPS for the top post in this thread, here's the breakdown:

GURPS:

Pros:
• universal system, supports GM tinkering
• by default, supports harsh combat, skill-based spells, points-buy and PC customization. All can be tweaked to some degree. GMs and PCs can easily work together to develop a character's profession without having to worry about balance in house rules.
• huge flexibility in designing monsters, npcs, etc.
• supplement books are highly respected and their literature research is useful even for non-GURPS systems. (Specifically recommended: Horror, Mysteries, Low-tech, Social Engineering, Thaumatology.)
• somebody is converting it on these forums. Allegedly. >_>

Cons:
• universal system, so the GM will have to familiarize players with the system and then familiarize them with his personal tweaks to it.
• GM has a lot of work to do, to pare away the rules that have no place in his campaign. Understanding of probabilities helps a lot too.
• more suitable for players who are more accustomed to customizing their characters, rather than following preset progression paths.
• the forum guy who's converting Ravenloft to GURPS is HuManBing >_<...

[DeepShadow of FoS]

What about Pathfinder? IMO it fixed a LOT of stuff that was wrong with the 3.X skill system, and there are many optimal builds for every class.

[Blot]

Its a bit tangential but WW relaeased Monte Cooks WoD which essentially converts nWoD (vampires, wraiths, werewolves etc) to D20. It doesn't tell you how the conversion is done but it shows a D20 version of nWoD, so I'm sure it can't be that difficult to emulate in your own homebrew.

And as its WW its available at Drive Thru RPG as a pdf - http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_i ... s_id=50229

Honestly though unless your in love with WoD its probably just worth taking the fluff to your prefered RPG rather than converting the mechanics.

Ahha! I was certain that there was an nWoD / D20 connection somewhere - just slipped my mind. I have a copy of the Monte Cook kicking around somewhere, I shall dig it out and experiment.

In the 'real world' I teach Drama at GCSE and KS3 level, and Role-Play is on the GCSE syllabus. I've found that nWoD is a really nice system for initial character development and to pitch at non-gamers, particularly using Minds Eye Theatre as a base. It's nice to refer back to 2nd ed and THAC0 if I'm covering a Maths lesson.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Burning Wheel
Pro:

• Sweet social combat rules.

Really?? Would you mind summarizing it for my thread on social combat rules?

[ewancummins]

2nd Edition
Pro:

• Tons of published material, including many modules
• More dangerous combat than 3rd or 4th. Simple combat system.
• Simplest classes, easiest character creation. Classes imbalanced - Wizard becomes very powerful.
• Ravenloft books are fairly common.

Con:

• Awkward percentile thief skills, tons of saving throws.
• THAC0. (Okay, it's not bad if you know algebra.)
• Jury rigged proficiency system.

THAC0 is unnecessary if you simply use the charts.

If you want to 'fix' THAC0 and NWPs, you should look in Dragon Magazine for the following articles.


Out of Character: Simplifying THAC0 and Armor Class
Peter Adkison 249( page 24)

Back In the Saddle (Again)
Clayton R. Beal 225( page 44)

If you dislike % dice for thief skills, it's too easy to convert them to NWP rolled on a D20. Each 5% increment becomes a +1 bonus on a d20 roll.

Tons of saving throws? I'm confused. There are only five saving throws in D&d/AD&D (not 3E/D20). That's just two more than 3E. Did you mean something else? More attack forms that require saving throws, maybe?

As for magic, you should consider that wizards advance slowly. That's part of the game balance. If you do wish to tweak thing a bit, you might consider adding further Ravenloft side effects on certain powerful spells. I'd be careful not to gimp the wizard, though.

You might also consider a level cap (for all classes) lower than 20th. That's not really important if the PCs start at 1st level; getting to epic levels will take a very long time,

[HuManBing]

Burning Wheel
Pro:

• Sweet social combat rules.

Really?? Would you mind summarizing it for my thread on social combat rules?

Deepshadow, GURPS also recently published a set of social interaction rules called Social Engineering. But they are specifically a departure from "social combat", instead relying on specific skill checks and modifiers based on desired tasks. I don't know if they are relevant to your thread but I thought it might make for good reading.

[Lost Heretic]

I've updated the list above. Keep the suggestions coming.

THAC0 is unnecessary if you simply use the charts.

...

Tons of saving throws? I'm confused. There are only five saving throws in D&d/AD&D (not 3E/D20).

The THAC0 con was a joke. I removed it above.

With regard to saving throws, I haven't played 2nd in a while but I remember the Wizard having an entire sheet for his percentile saving throws. Maybe those came from optional products?

Really?? Would you mind summarizing it for my thread on social combat rules?

Sure.

[ewancummins]

With regard to saving throws, I haven't played 2nd in a while but I remember the Wizard having an entire sheet for his percentile saving throws. Maybe those came from optional products?

Percentile saving throws? A whole sheet? You must have been playing some strange variant. There are five saving throws in AD&D, and all are rolled with d20.