Dark Tales & Disturbing Legends

[Lucius]

Amazon.com has changed the release date of the book, now it´s listed as may 03. But they still don´t having the book.

[Mortavius]

Well, I've been able to read most of the first story of this book, To Inherit Eternity.

This is a good story. For ANY world. And that's it's major downfall, in my opinion. There is almost NOTHING to link this story to Ravenloft. Oh sure, there's a few domain names tossed in, but they seem to be almost an afterthought. The idea for the story (indeed, campaign) is a good one, but really, you could run this just as well in Forgotten Realms and you would have no problems.
I'm a little ticked off with this. We've gone through years of Ravenloft being "usable in any setting." Now, we're really starting to divorce ourselves from these other worlds, with Ravenloft being able to stand on it's own. Being able to use it's own gods, it's own peoples, it's own lands. And yet, here we have this, going right back to the old usable anywhere. I understand that maybe the writer wanted to give DM's the freedom to place the adventure anywhere, but come on! If a DM wants to place an adventure somewhere in their world, they will alter it so that they can do so, regardless of what the author writes. The author should give the DM a stable starting point, something that will spark the imagination. By leaving it completely unanchored, it leaves too much up to the DM, and cheats the author. Here, we have characters named "Senor Ramirez," a name that sounds distinctly spanish. So, I'm thinking what domain this will fit in well with. Possibly Invidia? But then, no one else, seems to have a name that is in common. We have a priest of the "Order of Eleazar," a scholarly order. Why? Why make up a whole new organization for DM's to wrestle with, when he could have easily been an anchorite of Ezra from Dementlieu? We have "The Evil One" and "The Cult of Light." Why? Why not use existing elements of Ravenloft? Why not make this wonderful story actually part of the world that it was written for???

I just feel that this could have been done so much better if the author remembered that he was writing for Ravenloft. We have mentions of places ruled by Salamanders or a Great Wyvern. How gothic are these creatures? Not very. Sure, a DM can put a twist on them to make them work. But again, why not use what we already have? There are numerous creatures appropriate for Ravenloft in the various monster manuals, and we even have a book of monsters just for Ravenloft, in the Denizens of Dread.

All in all, I give this story 2.5 blood drops out of 5. It really is a great piece of fiction. Unfortunately, that's all I think I'll ever use it as, because if I were to make a game from it, I would add and change so much that it wouldn't be very recognizable.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Well, I've been able to read most of the first story of this book, To Inherit Eternity.

This is a good story. For ANY world. And that's it's major downfall, in my opinion. There is almost NOTHING to link this story to Ravenloft. Oh sure, there's a few domain names tossed in, but they seem to be almost an afterthought. The idea for the story (indeed, campaign) is a good one, but really, you could run this just as well in Forgotten Realms and you would have no problems.
I'm a little ticked off with this. We've gone through years of Ravenloft being "usable in any setting." Now, we're really starting to divorce ourselves from these other worlds, with Ravenloft being able to stand on it's own. Being able to use it's own gods, it's own peoples, it's own lands. And yet, here we have this, going right back to the old usable anywhere. I understand that maybe the writer wanted to give DM's the freedom to place the adventure anywhere, but come on! If a DM wants to place an adventure somewhere in their world, they will alter it so that they can do so, regardless of what the author writes. The author should give the DM a stable starting point, something that will spark the imagination. By leaving it completely unanchored, it leaves too much up to the DM, and cheats the author. Here, we have characters named "Senor Ramirez," a name that sounds distinctly spanish. So, I'm thinking what domain this will fit in well with. Possibly Invidia? But then, no one else, seems to have a name that is in common. We have a priest of the "Order of Eleazar," a scholarly order. Why? Why make up a whole new organization for DM's to wrestle with, when he could have easily been an anchorite of Ezra from Dementlieu? We have "The Evil One" and "The Cult of Light." Why? Why not use existing elements of Ravenloft? Why not make this wonderful story actually part of the world that it was written for???

I just feel that this could have been done so much better if the author remembered that he was writing for Ravenloft. We have mentions of places ruled by Salamanders or a Great Wyvern. How gothic are these creatures? Not very. Sure, a DM can put a twist on them to make them work. But again, why not use what we already have? There are numerous creatures appropriate for Ravenloft in the various monster manuals, and we even have a book of monsters just for Ravenloft, in the Denizens of Dread.

All in all, I give this story 2.5 blood drops out of 5. It really is a great piece of fiction. Unfortunately, that's all I think I'll ever use it as, because if I were to make a game from it, I would add and change so much that it wouldn't be very recognizable.

If the designers didn't add new elements, the arak would still be drow under a mountain, half the darlords wouldn't actually have history or curses, PC's would still be restricted to outlander characters, and all adventures would involve killing Strahd or some other darklord.

Yes, the story has problems, the largest being it's inflexibility in trying to run PC's through the dinner party, but it still fits into the Ravenloft vein. An immortal who is trying to make others, resulting in their destruction or worse, and the cult that seeks to stop him can make for some great gothic scenes, especially with the results of actually attaining immortality.

Yes there are character names that seem out of place, but that can easily be explained by them being outlanders. Yes, there is an area that might have salamanders or wyverns, but those creatures are meant to be at the end of the long quest and are mentioned on a list you can choose from. They are there to stress the danger and alienness of the land in which the PC's find themselves. In the end, it is not that encounter that makes it gothic, but what they find when they get past it. That's what makes Ravenloft a gothic fantasy setting.

If anything, this adventure gave a possible way to make a campaign with an extremely powerful villian who is not a darklord, and might not even be that evil. How does that not conform to Ravenloft?

(EDIT: As for the scholarly order, why can't that be the name of a specific group within a Ezran sect? Orders of priests usually have another name that indicate which views they focus upon.)

[Charney]

In reply to what Mortavius pointed out and the answer from Tobias, I think it's better to aim in between. Yes, not using the setting in a book isn't good but using it too much isn't either.

If we stick only by what's in the setting currently, it'll become too static. But if newer and newer stuff is invented all the time, it'll contradict itself pretty fast.

Now I'm not commenting the story cause I haven't got the book yet. But this is a very interresting topic which was brought up.

[Tobias Blackburn]

In reply to what Mortavius pointed out and the answer from Tobias, I think it's better to aim in between. Yes, not using the setting in a book isn't good but using it too much isn't either.

If we stick only by what's in the setting currently, it'll become too static. But if newer and newer stuff is invented all the time, it'll contradict itself pretty fast.

Now I'm not commenting the story cause I haven't got the book yet. But this is a very interresting topic which was brought up.

True, but what in the story wouldn't work in Ravenloft? What flies against everything that the setting stands for? I think that the setting is in need of some higher level challenges that aren't darklords, and that's what I intend to use the adventure for. The One and the Cult of Light have an interesting conflict going on, and

If the story had revealed that it was all a plan by the Gentleman Caller to sow chaos and destory some annoyances, it would be declared the most Ravenloft story in the book. Instead, it introduces a new character, in a setting of a dinner party murder mystery which can fit in any of Ravenloft's more developed domains.

To be completely honest though, I would be more likely to run the adventure as written in a Masque of the Red Death game than in Ravenloft proper. That said, I can't see how the adventure would work as well in any other settings without some major revisions. Its hard to be so set against immortality with Mystra's Chosen around everywhere, and other settings have such easier ways of obtaining life eternal. This adventure is the first time I've seen DnD point out that immortality can be the worst burden of all, and I thnk that falls in line with what the setting stands for.

[Mortavius]

You're very correct, Tobias, the adventure does fit well in Ravenloft. And I said that right in the beginning.
The problem is, it fits just as well anywhere else.

The idea of seeking immortality is not indicitive to Ravenloft. People in FR and GH and DL all have sought immortality. These other worlds may have other ways of doing it, but someone seeking the gift would jump at this way too. This is the ultimate prize remember? And just because Mystra's Chosen run around the Realms, doesn't make this option of immortality any less attractive. It's just another option.

I think Charney put it more elegantly than I did (thanks Charney). If new elements are constantly introduced, before we even *use* the elements that were introduced in the last book, then what's the point? We have these great Gazetteers that have introduced new religions and quantified all sorts of things for us. And rather than use these great ideas and all the adventure hooks they contain, the author writes up all new stuff. This means that if a DM wants to use this adventure, he has to incorporate new ideas and find places for them all in the game. Now, some of this is easy. The outlander idea. The idea that the Order of Eleazer is a sect within the Ezran church. But what about all the references to the past battles? The Golden Horde? The battle at the pass? Are these all Falkovnian wars? Or did another domain attack? After awhile it becomes tiring, trying to come up with explanations for all of this. The author could have easily said that the Veteran was from Falkovnia and a member of one of the Dead Man's Campaigns. Simple, elegant, and fits with the world. Instead, he creates something new. Which means that a detail-oriented DM (and I am one of those) must come up with an explanation for this new idea.
I want to run an adventure; not write out a new backstory to an adventure, just to make it all fit into the world that it's supposed to be a part of.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Don't have my books on me at the moment, but...

In reference to the battles, Golden Horde and such, why couldn't they just be referenced to some Falknovian adventure. While the story itself gives you specific examples, it is only meant to show you how the events could happen. You'll notice that the NPC's are left undefined, even in which battles they participated in. If they had mentioned the Falknovian wars specifically, you have to place the party near Falknovia. As it is, it could involve the unprising in Barovia, or a resistance struggle against Malachio's forces in Invidia. If they nailed it down too much, a good number of people wouldn't have used it anyway, so they kept it vague and nebulous. A good number of the books mention ideas, monsters, and events but don't define them, in order to give DM's a kernel of an idea to work from.

What in Ravenloft (or in DnD as a whole) can't be used in other settings? I can run an adventure with a darklord character in Forgotten Realms or Eberron if I wanted (Divine Curses and other phenomina are funny that way), either keeping the flavour of Ravenloft or dumping it. In most cases, it isn't the actual events that define it as being one campaign setting or another, its how the DM presents it. If I don't keep track of water in the desert while on athas, and ignore the reprecussion of defiling, I may be playing in Tyr, but I'm not playing it as Dark Sun. If I say "The moon comes out and the entire town changes into werewolves and attack you." I'm not playing Ravenloft. Anyone can want immortality, but its how the events turn out or are presented that dictate its appropriateness.

Each setting has its own concerns to keep in mind when you play with it, and it helps if the DM knows where to put the stresses. I'll bet that there isn't a single Ravenloft scenario that a sufficiently knowledgeable person can't transfer to another setting.

[Joël of the FoS]

I have to admit I concur with some of the things said herey: there were no real effort to make it fit in Ravenloft. It could have been indeed anywhere else. It is quite generic. No something uterly bad, as the story is fun to read, but it's indeed more a gothic novel then a Ravenloft adventure.

The lack of attention to canon details is frustrating. And many things in it are angular and are not easily swallowed for A RL DM: i.e. the high fantasy / high power Eternal, the weird fantasy monsters, etc.

Compare it to the last story, the one by mouseferatu (Ari M.): many efforts were made to make it fit in the culture of Souragne, and it shows.

Joël

[Mortavius]

That's exactly what I'm talking about Joel; there was no effort to make this a Ravenloft story. It's gothic, but there's nothing to tie it to the setting.

Here's another example. If I were to hand this story to you (you haven't read it, we'll assume), and I took all the names of the domains out (which, by the way, are all in grey boxes, which are labeled as alternatives anyway), would you know that it's set in Ravenloft?

No, you wouldn't. There's no common ground, except for the theme of gothic horror. But it could just as well, have been set in Gothic Earth. Or any other gothic setting.

[Steve Miller]

I freely admit to not understanding the complaint about Johnson's adventure in "Dark Tales" at all. It's pretty much a standard of ANY Ravenloft adventure anthology (from 'Darklords' onward through the last of the "Children of the Night" series) that new elements are introduced to the setting that didn't exist previously. It's also pretty standard that many of the scenarios can be placed anywhere.

I REALLY don't understand the complaint about adding backstory/setting elements. (You probably want to skip "Curse of Ashington Manor," as it introduces a new monster and an enemy of the Vistani that's "been there all along" according to the set-up. Further, "Curse" isn't tied to any particular domain either.)

It's distressing that you probably won't like much of the book. But that's how it goes, I guess!

[Tobias Blackburn]

It seems that the biggest complaint is that the story didn't have the names of Ravenloft domains mentioned in it, to ground it to the Ravenloft (names that most people that decided to use the adventure were going to ignore anyway).

As for portions being too high fantasy... Golems weren't considered "gothic" until the guide to the created came out. A zombie invasion isn't gothic. A necromancer who turns an islands inhabitants because he wants them to stop bugging him isn't gothic. A crown that turns people into goblyns isn't gothic. Neither a lich kings with shadow dragon mounts, liches in general, mind flayers, or mentally powerful sentient brains in jars are not gothic. Its all in how the creatures and events are presented that make them more gothic than high fantasy.

Calibans never existed in Ravenloft before, and their description does not mention any domains or important NPC's. I can use them as calibans in any campaign that I want, not just Ravenloft.

Looking at To Inherit Eternity, I see the story of a man who has lost everything he has ever loved, has performed horrible acts in a fit of apathy, and finds himself utterly alone and hunted. He craves someone like himself and tests people, trying to find someone worthy but unaware that the "gift" is just as bad as his own. The Ambient may seem like something out of Star Trek, but so is the Living Brain. A source of energy with strange (some would say horrible) powers that can grant a twisted version of immortality is no worse than a lich king that can alter his subjects minds at will.

I still don't understand what the problem is.

[Mortavius]

Okay, all good points, Steve & Tobias.

I want to re-iterate AGAIN: I think it's a wonderful, gothic story.

I enjoyed reading it.

Here's where my problems lies. There's nothing that makes it specifically Ravenloft.

Okay, I'll elaborate. What differentiates Ravenloft from traditional gothic horror? Darklords ruling domains. The Mists. Outlanders. The names of domains and peoples within them. References to specific events. This is what takes a gothic story, and makes it Ravenloft. Ravenloft isn't just gothic horror, it's all of these aspects combined together. It's more than the sum of it's parts.

Now, To Inherit Eternity has a great amount of the first thing, the gothic story. Unfortunately, these is hardly any of the second; the links that put it in Ravenloft. For example.

There is a priest from the Order of Eleazer. It mentions that it's a scholarly order, dedicated to spreading knowledge for the purposes of good. And that's it. Why didn't the author spend a few more sentences, tying this to Ravenloft? Saying, it was founded in Dementlieu, and that it was originally part of the Ezran church, but then defected when the doctrines didn't work out together. Since then, the Order has spread to neighboring domains, but still remains a very small pressence, due to the fact that they are not known for healing the masses, but instead spreading wisdom. Do you see where I'm going?

If I'm playing this game, and my players ask, where did the Order of Eleazer come from, I'm forced to create an entire backstory for it. Why didn't the author do this? Because he wanted to leave it open-ended? Well, that's all fine and dandy, but there can be too much of a good thing. Leave it too open-ended, and suddenly you have an adventure that can fit anywhere.

Tobias, you said yourself that this adventure would fit well within Gothic Earth. Well, what are the commonalities between Gothic Earth and Ravenloft? A gothic atmosphere. But that's about it. The Vistani I guess too. That's what I mean. The story is definately gothic, but that's all it has to tie it to Ravenloft.

Steve, your story already (even though I haven't read it) has a tie-in to Ravenloft. It involves the Vistani. A people native to Ravenloft. To Inherit Eternity does not even do that.

I'm not opposed to creating something new. But write a few extra sentences when you do so, to make it part of the game world!

Another reference is to a shrine to a God of time. What god of time? There is no god of time in Ravenloft. Why throw this in? It would have been just as good with a shrine to Ezra, or another deity. Make it a shrine to Ezra, and say that it's an aspect of her role in the Mists, and the tricks that the Mists play with time. Done.

I just really get the impression from the story that the author did not read Ravenloft, and instead wrote a gothic story, but the editor came in and tied it down as best her or she could.

[Tobias Blackburn]

You've got some great points Mortavous, and know that we aren't going to change one another's opinions. I'm just enjoying the debate at this point.

Most people don't run Ravenloft exactly as it is presented in the books, which means they need to make changes to fit things in anyway. You can't expect a book to explain everything, otherwise it becomes to constricting.

If you want, you can make the Order of Eleazer a group of the Lawful Good Mordetnish doctrines. Even today there are religious orders of Catholic priests and brothers that have particular titles ie "The Brothers of Saint Michael". It doesn't mean that they're a splinter group or anything, it just means that they're a particular group of priests or that they focus on one or two teachings in their practise. What more is there to say? How was the founder? Probably Eleazer. Where are they based?

Also, no player is going to know absolutely everything about everything. If they want to do research into the order, and you feel comfortable with that, you can develop it. If I decide to run an adventure that includes a wax museum and the players suddenly become very interested in the hall of political figures, then I either make it up on the fly or find a way to distract them until I can think of something. Same thing if they ask me anything I haven't thought of yet.

If you are using an adventure from a book, you make sure you know it well enough to run it smoothly. If you sense gaps, you fill them in. Its always been like that.

As for the Shrine to the Time God, make one up, call it an outlander god that they don't recognize (quite possible), or change it. Same thing with everything else. Who it is dedicated to isn't as important as the fact that there is a shrine that suggests some relation to time.

Suggestions and opportunities to make your own stuff have filled the line for quite some time. Fenhounds, for example, can't be harmed by spells from clerics who worship gods of moon, moors or revenge. Nothing in the standard Ravenloft pantheon fits that, unless you add it.

My main point is that no published adventure ever fills in everything you need to know. There's always something that has been left out and the DM has to fill in. There's nothing in the adventure that can't work in Ravenloft, so there's no reason it shouldn't be in the book. Sure, it doesn't use domain names to tie itself directly down to one place (actually, it does in a number of places, its just that these are options to pick from), but it was an attempt to allow it to easily be placed in any domain the DM wanted. The only difference between this and Mr. Miller's tale is that he mentions that a doctor came from Dementlieu, and worship of hala. Other than that, it could fit in Gothic Earth just as easily as in Ravenloft. The choices that the objects in Eternity give name multiple domains, and the backdrop also mentions a number of follow-ups in Verbrek, Vechor and possible conflict with Darklords.

I think both stories are great and fit into Ravenloft very well without the normal fleshing out all DM's do in preparation of anything from a book. Beyond that, exclusivity is a luxury that has no real purpose.

[Joël of the FoS]

I freely admit to not understanding the complaint about Johnson's adventure in "Dark Tales" at all. It's pretty much a standard of ANY Ravenloft adventure anthology (from 'Darklords' onward through the last of the "Children of the Night" series) that new elements are introduced to the setting that didn't exist previously. It's also pretty standard that many of the scenarios can be placed anywhere.

Perhaps. But the main irritant of that first story for me is that all elements of this complex story are new (which is a lot, considering the background of numerous NPC involved).

Nothing of the "something borrowed, something new" that makes a good wedding, and develop the setting from its current base

Seriously, saying Curse of Ashington is similar is a bit far fetched: it is built using the blocks already in the playground, and adding a few new ones.

Joël

[Igor the Henchman]

You know, I find it interesting...

'cause my main problem with To Inherit Eternity was that I felt it wouldn't quite fit in any canon domain, as written.

Place it in Darkon, and Lord Theone will have to be a former baron, making him a vassal to Azalin. Could work, but then you'd have to explain what Azalin would think of having an immortal at his service.

It couldn't really take place in Lamordia, since most NPCs seem to believe - and be very interested in - magic.

Not in Richemulot or Dementlieu, those domains haven't been there long enough for Lord Theone to have lived as long as the story requires.

Not in Mordent, unless you twink Lord Theone to make his wealth and holdings a lot more modest.

Not in Falkovnia, Barovia, Nova Vaasa, Tepest, Verbrek, Invidia or Valachan, for cultural reasons...

Frankly, when I read that story, I thought that the only way to make it run it 'as is' in Ravenloft is to create a new domain specifically for it. Which, by the way, is not at all a bad idea - I find creating new domains a wonderful DM exercise. However, I don't think I'm interested in running it... All it offers is a long story, an impossible-to-run adventure and then a whole campaign - the author saw too big, I think.

My favorite two entries were Brood of Blutkalte and Noises in the Night. Their strength, I think, lies in that the authors did exactly what the introduction of the book announced: taking an archetype horror scenario (the serial killer and the boogeyman, respectively), and gave good advice on running this type of story in D&D, along with a ready-made example (gotta love Blutkalte - as a serial killer, that ghost has it all).