Communication between clergy in & a god outside of Ravenloft

[cure]

I would like to discuss communication between a powerful clergy, the Church of the Lawgiver, inside the Land of Mists and its god, The Lawgiver (Bane), on the outside looking in. In doing so I am drawing on this previous thread http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=3958 treating the question of "communicating with other worlds from RL".

In the prior thread DeepShadow observed that the Sending spell would enable communication between an individual within the Land of Mists and one without. Indeed, this is one viable explanation of how Vecna, trapped in the Land of Mists, was able to get instructions to his cultists, outside in the world of Oerth, necessary for the orchestration of the events in Cordell's and Miller's Die Vecna Die module. DeepShadow equally observed that the Scrying spell also can reach beyond the Land of Mists. Combine the Scrying and Message spells and a degree of two-way communication is enabled.

A key question is whether one can scry, not only out of the Land of Mists, but also into it? If so, the use of a pair of Scrying spells enables near seamless two-way communication. And in a higher octave, can a god of rank 1 or higher use his or her remote sensing and remote communication ability to observe events and communicate with individuals in the Land of Mists? Is there any canon concerning this, either in terms of actual rules or in terms of examples?

Clerics in the Land of Mists, as discussed in the Unspoken Pact, are cut off from their gods in significant ways. Among these is that the Commune spell simply does not work. And clerics do not have access to the Sending spell. But there are other tools available, principally the Scrying and Messaging spells and the Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally and Greater Planar Ally spells. The Messaging spell is not available to standard clerics but is available to cloister clerics as a 0th level spell. Scrying itself, like Commune, is a 5th level spell. The Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally and Greater Planar Ally spells are respectively 4th, 6th and 8th level. A powerful clergy, such as that of the Lawgiver, which finds itself thrust into a world where the Commune spell fails and its god suddenly has become distant and inscrutable seems unlikely to meekly acquiesce to this new reality.

An appropriate divine representative, one in charge of mortal revelation for example, can be called with a Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, or Greater Planar Ally spell. This may entail a payment of some sort to the called representative, but the clergy should be all too happy to bear this cost given the stakes. Yes, the Dark Powers will twist the spell such that the representative will not be able to leave and may even be violently unhappy about his or her effective imprisonment, but in the interim the clergy will have learned at least some answers and will have re-established a tentative line of communication with its god. At worst, if the god can’t see into the Land of Mists, he or she can still instruct all of his or her representatives to carry whatever message that he or she wants communicated to the clergy by the next one of them that is called. This message, rather than being to stop calling anyone since they can’t return, is more likely to be to start calling imps, or their equivalent, since they are disposable. Compliance with this very instruction would constitute evidence to the god that his or her messages were getting through.

Much more efficiently, a cloister cleric can cast a Scrying spell and a Message spell to open communication with the divine representative charged with mortal revelation. At worst, this is nearly as good as, and in some respects better than, a Commune spell. At best, near seamless communication can be established subsequently with pairs of Scrying spells.

DeepShadow suggested in the previous thread that the ban on Commune and Contact Other Plane spells is about preserving moral ambiguity. Men must decide for themselves, rather than seeking the answers from a higher power. Does this suggest that the use of the Scrying and Messaging spells or the Planar Ally spells to seek answers from a higher power should draw the attention and the interference of the Dark Powers? Are callings to this end intercepted and imposters dispatched by the Dark Powers to mislead such inquisitive clergy? Or, as part of the Unspoken Pact, do gods contacted through their representatives by these alternative means simply choose to reveal nothing that would spare men from having to decide for themselves?

The Unspoken Pact posits that gods are not to directly interfere in the ways of mortals in the Land of Mists. And in exchange the Dark Powers do not meddle in the ways of the gods. Is the latter letting gods receive souls pledged to their names and permitting gods to bestow spells as they see fit upon the clergies that serve them? And what is the former? Lesser gods may not come and go as they would in the Land of Mists. There is no example of a greater god doing so aside from Vecna becoming one to escape the Land of Mists. A rare (perhaps unique?) example of divine intervention from outside appears in the Shadowborn novel. The paladin Alexi Shadowborn seems to receive a warning from his god when he is in danger of falling. But Alexi, suitably nudged, is still left to choose for himself.

Where this gets especially interesting concerns, not moral ambiguity, but rather the nature of the Land of Mists, of the Dark Powers, and of their relationship to the gods. The Discern Location spell fails to name the Land of Mists. What does a god know about these matters and what can he or she tell his or her clergy about them? Does he or she know more than he or she can tell either because he or she abides by the terms of the Unspoken Pact or because the Dark Powers censor his or her communication with his or her clergy?

For the Church of the Lawgiver, there are two especially crucial instances of communication with the divine. First, there is the period immediately following the emergence of Nova Vaasa with the new sense of divine distance and divine inscrutability. What answers and orders do divine representatives called by Planar Ally spells carry? And what answers and orders are forthcoming from scrying enabled communication? Second, there is the period immediately following the Grand Conjunction during which the clergy lost access to their spells. Again what answers and orders do divine representatives called by Planar Ally spells carry? And what answers and orders are forthcoming from scrying enabled communication?

This latter period is of course tied up with the death of Bane in Toril. Do called or contacted individuals report that their former master is dead? If it is the Dark Powers that now grant the clergy their spells, do the Dark Powers intervene to conceal this fact and to prevent speculation on the matter? And what about later, when Bane returns to life in Toril? Do called or contacted representatives report now that their master has returned to existence? Do the Dark Powers relinquish back to Bane the bestowal of spells upon his clergy? And how is the continuity of spell bestowal during his death explained? Bane’s representatives are, of course, under no obligation to be honest with the clergy about what happened, and even the representatives should be somewhat puzzled by the situation. And the most perceptive of the clergy may well realise that they are being lied to by divine representatives. Is the threat of schism in the Church of the Lawgiver an extension into the mortal coil of the confused and/or dubious answers given by divine representatives and even confusion and discord among these divine representatives?

Canon and speculation are both welcome. And comparisons to how the Dark Powers treat/thwart the efforts to investigate them by the Fraternity of Shadows might be fruitful.

Thank you,

cure

[KingCorn]

I always figured that the gods just couldn't get involved with the lands of mist, period. I've always seen the idea of the Unspoken Pact as being just speculation by the few mortals who know about the demiplane. I figure it lends more to the mystic and menace of the Dark Powers by making it that the gods don't interfere in the land of mists cause they simply aren't strong enough too, or are too scared of the possible consequences.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I don't have much to contribute on this subject, but I will note that the 3.5 description of sending says:

"If the creature in question is not on the same plane of existence as you are, there is a 5% chance that the sending does not arrive. (Local conditions on other planes may worsen this chance considerably.)"

I would say that "the plane being the creation of micro-managing mystery god-beings who want their playground to remain private" would qualify as "local conditions" that would "worsen this chance considerably", possibly even to 100%. But as usual, if it helps your story, go for it.

[cure]

A couple of data-points:

From 1ed Realms of Terror p. 54, the continual use of a Horn of Valhalla to call berserkers who are then trapped in the Land of Mists eventually results in a greater power from Valhalla temporary translating into the Land of Mists to seize the horn and reclaim any surviving berserkers. The power and the survivors are then translated back to Vahalla. This is to say that called outsiders who do not return are missed, that the place of their disappearance is either known or can be learned by the gods, that their whereabouts in the Land of Mists can probably be ascertained from outside, and that greater gods can successfully retrieve them and themselves escape.

From Carnival p. 64, the incubus pursed by Isolde [the Gentleman Caller] is know to have escaped into a plane [the Land of Mists] that had been declared off limits by Isolde's superiors and, in permitting Isolde to pursue him there, it was known to her superiors and her that she would be entering a place from which she could not escape and would that she would have to be disguised there in mortal form.

[tomokaicho]

If a sending spell was to duplicate the effects of a commune spell, I would say that the spell either fails, or suffers a man-in-the-middle attack. Perhaps all sendings to and from the dread domains are subject to manipulation.

Planar Ally can't force a creature to appear - its strictly a request for the creature to appear, and if it or its diety understands the destination, it will likely choose not to go.

This latter period is of course tied up with the death of Bane in Toril. Do called or contacted individuals report that their former master is dead? If it is the Dark Powers that now grant the clergy their spells, do the Dark Powers intervene to conceal this fact and to prevent speculation on the matter? And what about later, when Bane returns to life in Toril? Do called or contacted representatives report now that their master has returned to existence? Do the Dark Powers relinquish back to Bane the bestowal of spells upon his clergy? And how is the continuity of spell bestowal during his death explained? Bane’s representatives are, of course, under no obligation to be honest with the clergy about what happened, and even the representatives should be somewhat puzzled by the situation. And the most perceptive of the clergy may well realise that they are being lied to by divine representatives. Is the threat of schism in the Church of the Lawgiver an extension into the mortal coil of the confused and/or dubious answers given by divine representatives and even confusion and discord among these divine representatives?

I prefer the dread realms to be located in an area outside the normal timestream. When you summon a creature from the outer planes to the Ravenloft setting, it could be coming from any time period. Maybe its the same day, but it could be a creature from a thousands years in the future, or a million years in the past.

[cure]

Critical new data point from 2ed Realm of Terror Red Book p. 22.:

First, a greater power [as opposed to a lesser one presumably] can remove individuals from the Land of Mists and guide them to safety [as per a Horn of Valhalla (discussed above); see in this edition p. 122].

Second, such a circumstance may be the result of preexisting agreement, but it may NOT be the result to communication between those inside and outside the land of Mists: "even a greater power will not communicate with its minions once they step through the Mists."

[Mistmaster]

Personally, I usual downplay the whole Dark-power interference, and prefer to treat Ravenloft as a normal world, only one were extra-planar communications are more difficult.

[cure]

I, Strahd: the War against Azalin shows Azalin struggling mightily to grasp at anything beyond the Land of Mists. In 543 a glimpse of such a world appears in a portal (opened with colossal magical effort) which he is prevented from traversing. And in 579, according to the speculation of Mangrum, Azalin succeeds in scrying a land beyond the Mists [Mordent] and struggles to bring it into alignment with the Land of Mists so as to open a portal to it and escape. This results in the scried-land being dragged into the Land of Mists as the proto-domain of Mordent which Azalin and Strahd both briefly visiting.

This is evidence that the Scry spell, Crystal Balls, and such cannot normally reach beyond the Land of Mists.

Any other of the novels address this point?

[cure]

The 3.5 Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide includes altered psionic powers. Among these appears Sending (p. 123) and Remote Viewing (p. 122). Both powers fail to work across closed domain borders. Are the borders of the Land of Mists themselves the equivalent of a closed border? Both power also refer the reader to the general information on Teleportation in the 3.5 Ravenloft Player's Handbook (p. 109) where teleportation is said to fail across closed borders or out of the Land of Mists.

[tomokaicho]

The 3.5 Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide includes altered psionic powers. Among these appears Sending (p. 123) and Remote Viewing (p. 122). Both powers fail to work across closed domain borders. Are the borders of the Land of Mists themselves the equivalent of a closed border?

Yes. I think that scrying beyond the dread realms should be at least a 9th level spell. And if you do see something, it may be what "they" want you to see.

[cure]

Somewhat in support of the idea that it is possible but difficult, the 2ed Red Book Ravenloft Campaign setting has under psionic powers Know Location the standard restriction that one does not learn that one is in the Domain of Dread, but on a Power score one does in fact learn just that (p. 108).

As to 9th level, I wonder, at least going off of the descriptions in I, Stradh: The War Against Azalin, whether some combination of a high Knowledge (arcane) check, a high Knowledge (planes) check, and expensive material preparation is in fact essential. One could even credibly add ritual magic to the equation, which would go some way to fixing the novel's error of attributing to Azalin his curse of being unable to cast new spells (and hence needing Stradh) before he actually becomes a Darklord.

[tomokaicho]

As to 9th level, I wonder, at least going off of the descriptions in I, Stradh: The War Against Azalin, whether some combination of a high Knowledge (arcane) check, a high Knowledge (planes) check, and expensive material preparation is in fact essential. One could even credibly add ritual magic to the equation, which would go some way to fixing the novel's error of attributing to Azalin his curse of being unable to cast new spells (and hence needing Stradh) before he actually becomes a Darklord.

Ready for the Dread Possibility? Nevermind, you are getting one anyway.

When Azalin first arrived in the Dread Realms, he was stunned by the sudden increase in his abilities. No longer did he need to prepare spells - he was able to cast any of the spells that he knew previously on the fly like a sorcerer, and he could cast a greater number of spells in a day. In fact, Azalin now IS a sorcerer, albeit his stat for casting spells is intelligence, not charisma.

As a 20th level sorcerer, Azalin has reached the limit of his spell knowledge. Contra cannon, Azalin can in fact gain levels, but he cannot trade out spells for other spells. He cannot learn any new spells at all. Any spell that Azalin could cast before, he can cast spontaneously. See QtR #14 'An Audience with the King', for speculation on what spells Azalin knows.

Now Azalin's disability makes more sense. Azalin's curse was all stick, and no carrot. It was arbitrarily harsh, and lacked the pathos we expect of the Ravenloft setting. Instead Azalin arrives in the Dread Realms and can't believe his luck due to his enhanced powers. That might have gone on for some time until he tried to use a spellbook to memorize a spell and failed utterly.

[Mistmaster]

I always preferred the Ravenloft Reincarnated approach to Azalin Curse; is not that he cant' learn new spells, is that everytime he try to do some arcane research (new spells, new golem, new magic items) a crisis arisein Darkon; he can tolerate disorder so he must intervene, so lo0sing the chance, everytime.

[cure]

I prefer the dread realms to be located in an area outside the normal timestream. When you summon a creature from the outer planes to the Ravenloft setting, it could be coming from any time period. Maybe its the same day, but it could be a creature from a thousands years in the future, or a million years in the past.

This fits well with the description of the passage of time in the Land of Mists:

"Time flows strangely in Ravenloft, so when the heroes are freed, they could, conceivably, be sent to any place and time on the Material Plane. Indeed, many outlanders are returned to the exact time and place they first entered the Mists, regardless of how many months, years or centuries may have passed for them in the meantime." (3.5 Ravenloft DMG, p. 24.)

[tomokaicho]

This fits well with the description of the passage of time in the Land of Mists:

"Time flows strangely in Ravenloft, so when the heroes are freed, they could, conceivably, be sent to any place and time on the Material Plane. Indeed, many outlanders are returned to the exact time and place they first entered the Mists, regardless of how many months, years or centuries may have passed for them in the meantime." (3.5 Ravenloft DMG, p. 24.)

Right. This reminds me of the Lord Soth controversy, and how unnecessary it was. Krynn canonically has multiple timelines that either exist simultaneously or existed at one point. Creatures, places, and people can be pulled into the Ravenloft setting from these timelines. So by Dragonlance canon Lord Soth never left Krynn, but in the timeline where Chaos prevailed, or the Age of Mortals never happened, maybe he did. There is no need to be fussed about it at all.

So if you want a well known NPC to be in your Ravenloft campaign, you can. And it need not even effect the primary timeline of the other campaign settings.

Also, and addendum on Azalin. His divination abilities are quite good. I also find it hard to believe that one such as Azalin has no levels in archmage. So my suggestion for Azalin is Wizard 5, Unseen Seer 10, Archmage 5.