Talk:Coal - Revision history

Cure at 20:39, 6 May 2010

2010-05-06T20:39:55Z

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	:I sincerely apologize for that. Considering your many contributions thus far, I would not want to in any way frustrate you or discourage you from continuing. If having a Coal page makes you happy, so be it. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)		:I sincerely apologize for that. Considering your many contributions thus far, I would not want to in any way frustrate you or discourage you from continuing. If having a Coal page makes you happy, so be it. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

	Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers. [[Actually, a pecularity that occurs with my Morzilla varient browser I see. It is rather the next problem that has been verified on multiple browsers.]])		Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers. [Actually, a pecularity that occurs with my Morzilla varient browser I see. It is rather the next problem that has been verified on multiple browsers.])

	:this is very odd. I have no such issue in Chrome, Firefox or IE. "Ezra, Go" goes to [[Ezra]], and "Ezra, Search" goes to [http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=ezra&fulltext=Search a search for Ezra]. Try deleting your cookies from fraternityofshadows.com? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)		:this is very odd. I have no such issue in Chrome, Firefox or IE. "Ezra, Go" goes to [[Ezra]], and "Ezra, Search" goes to [http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=ezra&fulltext=Search a search for Ezra]. Try deleting your cookies from fraternityofshadows.com? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Cure at 20:38, 6 May 2010

2010-05-06T20:38:59Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:38, 6 May 2010
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	:I sincerely apologize for that. Considering your many contributions thus far, I would not want to in any way frustrate you or discourage you from continuing. If having a Coal page makes you happy, so be it. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)		:I sincerely apologize for that. Considering your many contributions thus far, I would not want to in any way frustrate you or discourage you from continuing. If having a Coal page makes you happy, so be it. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

	Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers.)		Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers. [[Actually, a pecularity that occurs with my Morzilla varient browser I see. It is rather the next problem that has been verified on multiple browsers.]])

	:this is very odd. I have no such issue in Chrome, Firefox or IE. "Ezra, Go" goes to [[Ezra]], and "Ezra, Search" goes to [http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=ezra&fulltext=Search a search for Ezra]. Try deleting your cookies from fraternityofshadows.com? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)		:this is very odd. I have no such issue in Chrome, Firefox or IE. "Ezra, Go" goes to [[Ezra]], and "Ezra, Search" goes to [http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=ezra&fulltext=Search a search for Ezra]. Try deleting your cookies from fraternityofshadows.com? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Gonzoron at 19:19, 6 May 2010

2010-05-06T19:19:44Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:19, 6 May 2010
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	This is getting frustrating and needlessly so as far as I can see.		This is getting frustrating and needlessly so as far as I can see.

	Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers.) A flaw in the software evidently, but also a reality we live with. Type "wonder" and hit search, no results at all. Hit 'go' and wonder to be behold a page of wonders. Evidently another flaw in the software. I have run into others that I unwisely failed to document. Now type "moon" and hit search. Everything connected to "The Dark of the Moon" comes up plus a few references one might actually want to the thing in the sky. Search is a useful, imprecise, unreliable creature. But I don't consider that an argument for tearing down the "Ezra" page or suggesting that the "Dark of the Moon" stuff is cluttering up access to the page on the actual moon.		:I sincerely apologize for that. Considering your many contributions thus far, I would not want to in any way frustrate you or discourage you from continuing. If having a Coal page makes you happy, so be it. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

			Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers.)

			:this is very odd. I have no such issue in Chrome, Firefox or IE. "Ezra, Go" goes to [[Ezra]], and "Ezra, Search" goes to [http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=ezra&fulltext=Search a search for Ezra]. Try deleting your cookies from fraternityofshadows.com? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

			A flaw in the software evidently, but also a reality we live with. Type "wonder" and hit search, no results at all. Hit 'go' and wonder to be behold a page of wonders. Evidently another flaw in the software.

			:This is a puzzlement that I've been working on. "Better searching" has been near the bottom of my to-do list for a while. I'll bump it up higher -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

			I have run into others that I unwisely failed to document. Now type "moon" and hit search. Everything connected to "The Dark of the Moon" comes up plus a few references one might actually want to the thing in the sky. Search is a useful, imprecise, unreliable creature. But I don't consider that an argument for tearing down the "Ezra" page or suggesting that the "Dark of the Moon" stuff is cluttering up access to the page on the actual moon.

			:A good point, though the line must be drawn somewhere, IMHO. Perhaps my line is a little more restrictive than yours. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

	Further, no page we create is assured in the least of remaining as up to date as a search because the minute after we create it someone can add something to the database without bothering to go to the page and write the information, or at least a link, into it. But again that is surely not an argument against writing pages or an argument for banning additions to the database that aren't all properly written into any page ultimately dealing with them.		Further, no page we create is assured in the least of remaining as up to date as a search because the minute after we create it someone can add something to the database without bothering to go to the page and write the information, or at least a link, into it. But again that is surely not an argument against writing pages or an argument for banning additions to the database that aren't all properly written into any page ultimately dealing with them.
			:agreed. It just seems to me that for certain generic topics, search is a better way to find them. I see that Coal is not just a generic object to you, though, as it is for me. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

	As to the time matter, I cannot account for the interest of others in the non-existence of a page on coal. But as for myself, the trade relations in the Core and beyond and in gaming worlds generally have always interested me because they not only give world's texture but they are excellent story drivers. In the last handful of months, I answered the complaint of someone on the board about the remoteness and disconnectedness of Hazlan by explaining to him my vision of the opium trade. In his approximative words, my description was a source of numerous worthy gaming hooks or actually even more than that. It should also be noted that the designers repeatedly bothered to include information on the products of the respective lands and very occasionally said something concrete about trade relations. So this is not some inexplicable madness on my part alone. Indeed, we even have a coal magnet darklord whose domain has the incredible (and for my money ''wrong'') ability to attach itself to any Misty Border for the purpose of coal export!		As to the time matter, I cannot account for the interest of others in the non-existence of a page on coal.

			:Let's put it this way: Is there a potential page you could imagine that should not exist? Not something completely irrelevant like <nowiki>[[Madonna]]</nowiki>, but something that exists in Ravenloft, and yet does not merit a page. <nowiki>[[bootlaces]], perhaps? or [[milk]]? [[saddles]]? [[Old Age]]? [[The dress S bought in Dementlieu]]? Taken to the ludicrous extreme: [[Nose Hairs]]? [[Category:Toilet]]? </nowiki> Whatever it may be, however important it may be to all or some of the people of Ravenloft, it might not need a page in the wiki. That's the feeling I had about Coal. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

			But as for myself, the trade relations in the Core and beyond and in gaming worlds generally have always interested me because they not only give world's texture but they are excellent story drivers. In the last handful of months, I answered the complaint of someone on the board about the remoteness and disconnectedness of Hazlan by explaining to him my vision of the opium trade. In his approximative words, my description was a source of numerous worthy gaming hooks or actually even more than that. It should also be noted that the designers repeatedly bothered to include information on the products of the respective lands and very occasionally said something concrete about trade relations. So this is not some inexplicable madness on my part alone. Indeed, we even have a coal magnet darklord whose domain has the incredible (and for my money ''wrong'') ability to attach itself to any Misty Border for the purpose of coal export!

	Arguably slightly madder, I am very interested in technology and its limits in Ravenloft. Machines do not run themselves. Even the material on Lumley House admits as much. In a magical world the question is not posed. But the Lamordians are antimagical positivists and they are not building machines that are powered by the arcane or the divine. Azalin sticks a hearth fiend in his forge, the Lamordian does not, but if he wants to achieve at all comparable metallurgical results he better have access to high quality coal. But back to machines, anything that is written about them implies a discussion of the power for them. Even the incredibly misguided - ''evidently'' in my opinion - science prestige class included alchemical batteries as a power source. Modernity, in the material sense, is about technology and the energy to fuel it. Greyhawk can do very well ignoring questions of energy. Ravenloft cannot. Indeed the latest Gaz of the Frat had a very nice section on how Easan meets his energy requirements with lightning collection and batteries. And yes, I wrote that into the Mistipedia too.		Arguably slightly madder, I am very interested in technology and its limits in Ravenloft. Machines do not run themselves. Even the material on Lumley House admits as much. In a magical world the question is not posed. But the Lamordians are antimagical positivists and they are not building machines that are powered by the arcane or the divine. Azalin sticks a hearth fiend in his forge, the Lamordian does not, but if he wants to achieve at all comparable metallurgical results he better have access to high quality coal. But back to machines, anything that is written about them implies a discussion of the power for them. Even the incredibly misguided - ''evidently'' in my opinion - science prestige class included alchemical batteries as a power source. Modernity, in the material sense, is about technology and the energy to fuel it. Greyhawk can do very well ignoring questions of energy. Ravenloft cannot. Indeed the latest Gaz of the Frat had a very nice section on how Easan meets his energy requirements with lightning collection and batteries. And yes, I wrote that into the Mistipedia too.

	I won't say that it is my time to waste because I don't see it as wasted time. But if anyone wants to provide a prioritised list of what I ''should'' be treating, I will look it over at least. Do I presume correctly that homebrew material won't be on that list? Or do we really want to go down that road . . . .		I won't say that it is my time to waste because I don't see it as wasted time. But if anyone wants to provide a prioritised list of what I ''should'' be treating, I will look it over at least. Do I presume correctly that homebrew material won't be on that list? Or do we really want to go down that road . . . .
			:Again I apologize for implying that the topics that interest you are wasted time. I've tried to make Mistipedia as open as possible in terms of what can go in it, homebrew or otherwise. I would not presume to make such a list. It's clear that everyone has different priorities as far as what to add. It is inherent in the very concept of a wiki. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

	Granted, there is an other matter in other pages that I have addressed that may well pose the question of appropriateness to Ravenloft, a question that is a legitimate community concern. But I fail utterly to see the inappropriateness of treating coal in the Land of Mists. For in sum, it is canon, it is the canon business of a domain lord, it is the chief canon business of a domain, that darklord and domain engage in the canon trade of coal, we have canon blast furnances that require coal, we have canon paddlewheelers that very probably make use of coal, and we have the canon beginnings of an industrial revolution that is about not relying upon magic to get things done, and that means energy, and that energy is to a very significant degree coal. And frankly, the filth, grim, pollutingness, and poison of coal is gothic in a way: a madness that we willing visit upon ourselves to this day.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 16:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)		Granted, there is an other matter in other pages that I have addressed that may well pose the question of appropriateness to Ravenloft, a question that is a legitimate community concern. But I fail utterly to see the inappropriateness of treating coal in the Land of Mists. For in sum, it is canon, it is the canon business of a domain lord, it is the chief canon business of a domain, that darklord and domain engage in the canon trade of coal, we have canon blast furnances that require coal, we have canon paddlewheelers that very probably make use of coal, and we have the canon beginnings of an industrial revolution that is about not relying upon magic to get things done, and that means energy, and that energy is to a very significant degree coal. And frankly, the filth, grim, pollutingness, and poison of coal is gothic in a way: a madness that we willing visit upon ourselves to this day.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 16:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


			:(If you are starting to read here, see my comments above inlined with Cure's post.) In conclusion, I regret if this discussion has frustrated you. We obviously are not going to agree on the point, but I'm willing to table it for now. [[Coal]] can stay, and lets move on. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Cure at 16:41, 6 May 2010

2010-05-06T16:41:13Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:41, 6 May 2010
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	another example: type "wheat" in the search box and hit enter. The ability to find all the info in the wiki about wheat is already there. A <nowiki>[[Wheat]]</nowiki> page would be redundant and get in the way, just like [[Coal]] does. Add to that the time that it took to create [[Coal]] and the time we've spent discussing it, all of which could have been spent on more productive parts of the wiki. So, is it truly doing no harm? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)		another example: type "wheat" in the search box and hit enter. The ability to find all the info in the wiki about wheat is already there. A <nowiki>[[Wheat]]</nowiki> page would be redundant and get in the way, just like [[Coal]] does. Add to that the time that it took to create [[Coal]] and the time we've spent discussing it, all of which could have been spent on more productive parts of the wiki. So, is it truly doing no harm? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)




	This is getting frustrating and needlessly so as far as I can see.		This is getting frustrating and needlessly so as far as I can see.
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	I won't say that it is my time to waste because I don't see it as wasted time. But if anyone wants to provide a prioritised list of what I ''should'' be treating, I will look it over at least. Do I presume correctly that homebrew material won't be on that list? Or do we really want to go down that road . . . .		I won't say that it is my time to waste because I don't see it as wasted time. But if anyone wants to provide a prioritised list of what I ''should'' be treating, I will look it over at least. Do I presume correctly that homebrew material won't be on that list? Or do we really want to go down that road . . . .

	Granted, there is an other matter in other pages that I have addressed that may well pose the question of appropriateness to Ravenloft, a question that is a legitimate community concern. But I fail utterly to see the inappropriateness of treating coal in the Land of Mists. For in sum, it is canon, it is the canon business of a domain lord, it is the chief canon business of a domain, that darklord and domain engage in the canon trade of coal, we have canon blast furnances that require coal, we have canon paddlewheelers that very probably make use of coal, and we have the canon beginnings of an industrial revolution that is about not relying upon magic to get things done, and that means energy, and that energy is to a very significant degree coal. And frankly, the filth, grim, pollutingness, and poison of coal is gothic in a way: a madness that we willing visit upon ourselves to this day.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 16:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)		Granted, there is an other matter in other pages that I have addressed that may well pose the question of appropriateness to Ravenloft, a question that is a legitimate community concern. But I fail utterly to see the inappropriateness of treating coal in the Land of Mists. For in sum, it is canon, it is the canon business of a domain lord, it is the chief canon business of a domain, that darklord and domain engage in the canon trade of coal, we have canon blast furnances that require coal, we have canon paddlewheelers that very probably make use of coal, and we have the canon beginnings of an industrial revolution that is about not relying upon magic to get things done, and that means energy, and that energy is to a very significant degree coal. And frankly, the filth, grim, pollutingness, and poison of coal is gothic in a way: a madness that we willing visit upon ourselves to this day.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 16:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Cure at 16:40, 6 May 2010

2010-05-06T16:40:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:40, 6 May 2010
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	another example: type "wheat" in the search box and hit enter. The ability to find all the info in the wiki about wheat is already there. A <nowiki>[[Wheat]]</nowiki> page would be redundant and get in the way, just like [[Coal]] does. Add to that the time that it took to create [[Coal]] and the time we've spent discussing it, all of which could have been spent on more productive parts of the wiki. So, is it truly doing no harm? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)		another example: type "wheat" in the search box and hit enter. The ability to find all the info in the wiki about wheat is already there. A <nowiki>[[Wheat]]</nowiki> page would be redundant and get in the way, just like [[Coal]] does. Add to that the time that it took to create [[Coal]] and the time we've spent discussing it, all of which could have been spent on more productive parts of the wiki. So, is it truly doing no harm? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

			This is getting frustrating and needlessly so as far as I can see.

			Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers.) A flaw in the software evidently, but also a reality we live with. Type "wonder" and hit search, no results at all. Hit 'go' and wonder to be behold a page of wonders. Evidently another flaw in the software. I have run into others that I unwisely failed to document. Now type "moon" and hit search. Everything connected to "The Dark of the Moon" comes up plus a few references one might actually want to the thing in the sky. Search is a useful, imprecise, unreliable creature. But I don't consider that an argument for tearing down the "Ezra" page or suggesting that the "Dark of the Moon" stuff is cluttering up access to the page on the actual moon.

			Further, no page we create is assured in the least of remaining as up to date as a search because the minute after we create it someone can add something to the database without bothering to go to the page and write the information, or at least a link, into it. But again that is surely not an argument against writing pages or an argument for banning additions to the database that aren't all properly written into any page ultimately dealing with them.

			As to the time matter, I cannot account for the interest of others in the non-existence of a page on coal. But as for myself, the trade relations in the Core and beyond and in gaming worlds generally have always interested me because they not only give world's texture but they are excellent story drivers. In the last handful of months, I answered the complaint of someone on the board about the remoteness and disconnectedness of Hazlan by explaining to him my vision of the opium trade. In his approximative words, my description was a source of numerous worthy gaming hooks or actually even more than that. It should also be noted that the designers repeatedly bothered to include information on the products of the respective lands and very occasionally said something concrete about trade relations. So this is not some inexplicable madness on my part alone. Indeed, we even have a coal magnet darklord whose domain has the incredible (and for my money ''wrong'') ability to attach itself to any Misty Border for the purpose of coal export!

			Arguably slightly madder, I am very interested in technology and its limits in Ravenloft. Machines do not run themselves. Even the material on Lumley House admits as much. In a magical world the question is not posed. But the Lamordians are antimagical positivists and they are not building machines that are powered by the arcane or the divine. Azalin sticks a hearth fiend in his forge, the Lamordian does not, but if he wants to achieve at all comparable metallurgical results he better have access to high quality coal. But back to machines, anything that is written about them implies a discussion of the power for them. Even the incredibly misguided - ''evidently'' in my opinion - science prestige class included alchemical batteries as a power source. Modernity, in the material sense, is about technology and the energy to fuel it. Greyhawk can do very well ignoring questions of energy. Ravenloft cannot. Indeed the latest Gaz of the Frat had a very nice section on how Easan meets his energy requirements with lightning collection and batteries. And yes, I wrote that into the Mistipedia too.

			I won't say that it is my time to waste because I don't see it as wasted time. But if anyone wants to provide a prioritised list of what I ''should'' be treating, I will look it over at least. Do I presume correctly that homebrew material won't be on that list? Or do we really want to go down that road . . . .

			Granted, there is an other matter in other pages that I have addressed that may well pose the question of appropriateness to Ravenloft, a question that is a legitimate community concern. But I fail utterly to see the inappropriateness of treating coal in the Land of Mists. For in sum, it is canon, it is the canon business of a domain lord, it is the chief canon business of a domain, that darklord and domain engage in the canon trade of coal, we have canon blast furnances that require coal, we have canon paddlewheelers that very probably make use of coal, and we have the canon beginnings of an industrial revolution that is about not relying upon magic to get things done, and that means energy, and that energy is to a very significant degree coal. And frankly, the filth, grim, pollutingness, and poison of coal is gothic in a way: a madness that we willing visit upon ourselves to this day.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 16:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Gonzoron at 15:43, 5 May 2010

2010-05-05T15:43:07Z

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	I look forward to your entries on wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, and silk. [[User:DeepShadow\|DeepShadow]] 14:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)		I look forward to your entries on wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, and silk. [[User:DeepShadow\|DeepShadow]] 14:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)




			I was ready to let this go, as Cure said, where's the harm in it? But consider this... Assume someone wants to know about coal in Ravenloft. They come here (to [[Main Page]]) and type "coal" in the search box and hit enter. By default, "enter" hits the "Go" button and takes them directly to [[Coal]], currently a not very interesting page. If they had been clever/wiki-savvy enough to hit "Search" instead, they get all the pages that mention coal... a much more useful result. Now, imagine if [[Coal]] didn't exist. The default "enter" would not have a target to "Go" to and would switch to "Search". So, ironically, having this page is actually ''slowing down'' the user's access to information on Coal.

			Now, ''if'' this page was updated well, with links to all mentions of Coal on the wiki, yes it would be just as useful as a search. But what information would it provide that a search does not? And how much harder is it to keep the Coal page updated than to simply type coal in the text of any other page on the wiki? Suppose I (as another random user) have a homebrew domain that produces coal, and I'm typing up a page on it.... am I going to be likely to think, "hey, I mentioned coal, I better go to [[Coal]] and add a link to my homebrew domain?" or am I more likely to just write: "Resources: coal" on my domain's page?

			another example: type "wheat" in the search box and hit enter. The ability to find all the info in the wiki about wheat is already there. A <nowiki>[[Wheat]]</nowiki> page would be redundant and get in the way, just like [[Coal]] does. Add to that the time that it took to create [[Coal]] and the time we've spent discussing it, all of which could have been spent on more productive parts of the wiki. So, is it truly doing no harm? -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

DeepShadow at 14:28, 23 April 2010

2010-04-23T14:28:27Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:28, 23 April 2010
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	Let's say some one wants to set an adventure on a boat going upriver and that someone stops to ask how do boats go upriver. Sailing if one can wait for favorable winds might work, but that is hardly reliable. Magic is a blunt weapon in a world increasingly not relying on it as well as one where magic is quite hidden. Well, why not one of those paddlewheelers? Very good, powered by, well, magic. No, that is a blunt instrument. Well, what powers paddlewheelers? Steam. Where do we get the steam? A boiler. How does the steam get in the boiler (an excellent question as far as [[Lumley House]] is concerned incidently)? The burning of wood or, preferably, of coal. Is there any coal about? Where? Affordably priced? Isn't Nosos locked a way in the Mists? Coal is actually essential to the existence of blast furnances? So all of Ravenloft's most advanced metallurgical works need it too. And all the mills that are not next to an inclined river? It is in fact the basis of the beginning of the industrial revolution that is sketched on the horizon? How does the stuff get distrubuted about the Core? Etc. It is part and parcel of sketching out the trade relations of the Core and beyond. Or, if one prefers, it is not doing any harm.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 02:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)		Let's say some one wants to set an adventure on a boat going upriver and that someone stops to ask how do boats go upriver. Sailing if one can wait for favorable winds might work, but that is hardly reliable. Magic is a blunt weapon in a world increasingly not relying on it as well as one where magic is quite hidden. Well, why not one of those paddlewheelers? Very good, powered by, well, magic. No, that is a blunt instrument. Well, what powers paddlewheelers? Steam. Where do we get the steam? A boiler. How does the steam get in the boiler (an excellent question as far as [[Lumley House]] is concerned incidently)? The burning of wood or, preferably, of coal. Is there any coal about? Where? Affordably priced? Isn't Nosos locked a way in the Mists? Coal is actually essential to the existence of blast furnances? So all of Ravenloft's most advanced metallurgical works need it too. And all the mills that are not next to an inclined river? It is in fact the basis of the beginning of the industrial revolution that is sketched on the horizon? How does the stuff get distrubuted about the Core? Etc. It is part and parcel of sketching out the trade relations of the Core and beyond. Or, if one prefers, it is not doing any harm.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 02:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

			I look forward to your entries on wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, and silk. [[User:DeepShadow\|DeepShadow]] 14:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Cure at 02:36, 23 April 2010

2010-04-23T02:36:45Z

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	Okay, suppose someone in the future wants to set an adventure in a coal mine, and will look here for likely prospects. That's the best situation I can come up with that would justify this, and I'm still not seeing it. [[User:DeepShadow\|DeepShadow]] 02:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)		Okay, suppose someone in the future wants to set an adventure in a coal mine, and will look here for likely prospects. That's the best situation I can come up with that would justify this, and I'm still not seeing it. [[User:DeepShadow\|DeepShadow]] 02:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

			Let's say some one wants to set an adventure on a boat going upriver and that someone stops to ask how do boats go upriver. Sailing if one can wait for favorable winds might work, but that is hardly reliable. Magic is a blunt weapon in a world increasingly not relying on it as well as one where magic is quite hidden. Well, why not one of those paddlewheelers? Very good, powered by, well, magic. No, that is a blunt instrument. Well, what powers paddlewheelers? Steam. Where do we get the steam? A boiler. How does the steam get in the boiler (an excellent question as far as [[Lumley House]] is concerned incidently)? The burning of wood or, preferably, of coal. Is there any coal about? Where? Affordably priced? Isn't Nosos locked a way in the Mists? Coal is actually essential to the existence of blast furnances? So all of Ravenloft's most advanced metallurgical works need it too. And all the mills that are not next to an inclined river? It is in fact the basis of the beginning of the industrial revolution that is sketched on the horizon? How does the stuff get distrubuted about the Core? Etc. It is part and parcel of sketching out the trade relations of the Core and beyond. Or, if one prefers, it is not doing any harm.[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 02:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

DeepShadow at 02:16, 23 April 2010

2010-04-23T02:16:54Z

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	Yes coals matter to ravenloft, no question. But so does wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, silk and any number of other resources. If Ravenloft were a real world all these things and more are important. But as a game/fiction world? Does anyone really care about such details? And if they do, is there anything we can say about how those things are used in Ravenloft that isn't an obvious and simple extrapolation of how they are used in the real world? I just don't see what value is added to the ''wiki'' by having a Coal page. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)		Yes coals matter to ravenloft, no question. But so does wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, silk and any number of other resources. If Ravenloft were a real world all these things and more are important. But as a game/fiction world? Does anyone really care about such details? And if they do, is there anything we can say about how those things are used in Ravenloft that isn't an obvious and simple extrapolation of how they are used in the real world? I just don't see what value is added to the ''wiki'' by having a Coal page. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

			Okay, suppose someone in the future wants to set an adventure in a coal mine, and will look here for likely prospects. That's the best situation I can come up with that would justify this, and I'm still not seeing it. [[User:DeepShadow\|DeepShadow]] 02:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Gonzoron at 15:18, 21 April 2010

2010-04-21T15:18:52Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:18, 21 April 2010
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	"The British Industrial Revolution is characterized by developments in the areas of textile manufacturing, mining, metallurgy and transport driven by the development of the steam engine. Above all else, the revolution was driven by cheap energy in the form of coal, produced in ever-increasing amounts from the abundant resources of Britain. Coal converted to coke gave the blast furnace and cast iron in much larger amounts than before, and a range of structures could be created, such as The Iron Bridge. Cheap coal meant that industry was no longer constrained by water resources driving the mills, although it continued as a valuable source of power. The steam engine helped drain the mines, so more coal reserves could be accessed, and the output of coal increased. The development of the high-pressure steam engine made locomotives possible, and a transport revolution followed."		"The British Industrial Revolution is characterized by developments in the areas of textile manufacturing, mining, metallurgy and transport driven by the development of the steam engine. Above all else, the revolution was driven by cheap energy in the form of coal, produced in ever-increasing amounts from the abundant resources of Britain. Coal converted to coke gave the blast furnace and cast iron in much larger amounts than before, and a range of structures could be created, such as The Iron Bridge. Cheap coal meant that industry was no longer constrained by water resources driving the mills, although it continued as a valuable source of power. The steam engine helped drain the mines, so more coal reserves could be accessed, and the output of coal increased. The development of the high-pressure steam engine made locomotives possible, and a transport revolution followed."
	[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 05:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)		[[User:Cure\|Cure]] 05:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


			Yes coals matter to ravenloft, no question. But so does wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, silk and any number of other resources. If Ravenloft were a real world all these things and more are important. But as a game/fiction world? Does anyone really care about such details? And if they do, is there anything we can say about how those things are used in Ravenloft that isn't an obvious and simple extrapolation of how they are used in the real world? I just don't see what value is added to the ''wiki'' by having a Coal page. -- [[User:Gonzoron\|Gonzoron]] 15:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)