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In Legacy of the Blood it is suggested that the Mordenheim bloodline could be descended from his distant relatives, or even Eva, despite the fact that the blood relation of these relatives is very thin, and there is no blood relation in Eva at all. This doesn't sit well with me at all. For some families, like the Renier, the whole family seems share certain family traits, but in the case of Mordenheim it doesn't seem like that at all. If it were true then Mordenheim would likely be surrounded by families members (like the Reniers), that are supportive of him.

Therefore I suggest a change. Distant blood relatives of Mordenheim do not share his traits or curse, only direct descendants. But Elise was barren, and never bore Victor a child. True indeed. That shouldn't mean that Victor Mordenheim would have no direct biological descendants. I suggest then that Victor, before his marriage and with a scientific mindset, visited the whores in Ludendorf to explore the biological act of sex. During this time he did have some biological children, but as they were bastard by-blows and Victor was a nobleman, he never gave it any thought (perhaps he did pay some of these women off, however. Can't have any embarrassment besmirching the Mordenheim name).

Anyway, now there is a reason why there are Mordenheims out there and are not part of his family, yet carry his proclivities or curse.

That certainly works, if it suits your campaign. I think you can understand why such things weren't in the "PG-13" published books. I'm personally OK with invoking distant relatives, or even using the "bloodline" abilities for similarly-minded characters with no blood relation at all. There's no reason one family need to have a monopoly on science.

I just want to point out that there was a similar idea used in Hammer's The Curse of Frankenstein, turning the maid Justine into a mistress impregnated by Frankenstein, who ultimately got her killed by the creature to protect the secret.
You could work that in if you want something more personal than a random prostitute (and subtle references to Hammer are always a plus, at least to me).

To be consistent across the board, you'll need to think about what you'll do with the Dilisnyas. Lord Leo Dilisnya is a Dilisnya in name only because he was actually the child of an illicit affair between Dorfinya (wife of Pidlwik Dilisnya) and Gunther Cosco. Yet the true Dilisnya bloodline, the ones descending from Reinhold are cursed with the heart of darkness as the Leo Dilisnya ones are.

As for the prostitute thing, I'm not sure, I don't think it fits Mordenheim's detached character very well. It seems more like an experiential thing for hi to do it in person rather than a detached, academic thing. I would more likely suspect he might make some clones of himself and then release them into the community to see how they interacted in the world socially and biologically. Of course, a few of these clones could/would escape and assimilate into nearby communities, thus allowing the "Mordenheim seed" to be sown.

(By Clone I'm not meaning exact duplicates as in the Clone spell, but rather like how Azalin did with

The Lesser Evil wrote:To be consistent across the board, you'll need to think about what you'll do with the Dilisnyas. Lord Leo Dilisnya is a Dilisnya in name only because he was actually the child of an illicit affair between Dorfinya (wife of Pidlwik Dilisnya) and Gunther Cosco. Yet the true Dilisnya bloodline, the ones descending from Reinhold are cursed with the heart of darkness as the Leo Dilisnya ones are.

Leo could be a problem... unless Dorfinya was also a Dilisnya blood relation. In terms of the whole family being cursed, I figure that the Dilisnya family was bad news long before Leo.

The Lesser Evil wrote:As for the prostitute thing, I'm not sure, I don't think it fits Mordenheim's detached character very well. It seems more like an experiential thing for hi to do it in person rather than a detached, academic thing. I would more likely suspect he might make some clones of himself and then release them into the community to see how they interacted in the world socially and biologically. Of course, a few of these clones could/would escape and assimilate into nearby communities, thus allowing the "Mordenheim seed" to be sown.

That is another possibility. I just thought of an even better one. What if the link between Victor and Adam means that Adam carries Mordenheim's seed (literally, Mordenheim's DNA). Presumably Adam is out there raping women (yes, I know that isn't explicitly said but the implication is there none the less), and some of them probably survive Adam's brutal attentions. Perhaps those that survive give birth to Mordenheim's children, with enough family resemblance to Victor to enrage Adam.

I know this is a question that was not covered in the Van Richten guide: are flesh golems 'biologically viable' in terms of reproduction? Or just Adam since he is so special and all other golems are just poorer imitations. I know Adam feels emotions and flesh golems in general are more capable than their prime material cousins, passion or lust may not be beyond their capabilities. Adam is already fearsome, but brutal rape may be a bit too much (and I say this as a DM who runs a R rated campaign with mature (ish), adult players).

Here's a random idea I had about reworking Mordenheim's backstory to allow for a bloodline, in a sense. I have no idea how well it could be fit into canon, but let me present it and see what you think:

Elise wasn't barren, exactly. The two found it very difficult to conceive, but one day they discovered she was pregnant. But in a horrible twist of fate, the child was delivered stillborn. Victor took the stillborn child and began experimenting on it, attempting to bring it to life. The end result was Adam. In the meantime, Victor and Elise attempted to have another child, with greater success, but the nurse was appalled by Mordenheim's experiments and lied to the parents, telling them that this child had died as well. The child was secreted away from the Mordenheims. Griefstricken, Elise refused to try to have another child of her own. The two eventually decided to adopt and they found little girl Eva. The Dark Powers, finding it ironic, made sure that the Mordenheims adopted the very child that had been hidden from them, never knowing it was truly their daughter. The rest plays out as usual, with Adam "killing" Eva, but with her actually surviving the fall, leaving her an actual descendant of Victor Mordenheim.

Alternatively, to go along with the Adam-as-Mordenheim idea presented above, Adam doesn't need to necessarily force himself upon women. It could be that he is still seeking the love and affection that he never received, but the closest he gets is prostitutes that are willing to sleep with him if he pays well enough. One or more get pregnant and voila. If, of course, Adam can even procreate.

tomokaicho wrote: Presumably Adam is out there raping women (yes, I know that isn't explicitly said but the implication is there none the less)

Which source where this is implicitly said?

Joël

Joël of the FoS wrote:

tomokaicho wrote: Presumably Adam is out there raping women (yes, I know that isn't explicitly said but the implication is there none the less)

Which source where this is implicitly said?

Joël

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, I think the intent is: Adam is out raping women because they would not consent to his advances otherwise. While not stated in a source, the implication is that is the way to justify the bloodline being widespread (given canon materials have 99% fully contradict it otherwise).

Dark Angel wrote:

Joël of the FoS wrote:

tomokaicho wrote: Presumably Adam is out there raping women (yes, I know that isn't explicitly said but the implication is there none the less)

Which source where this is implicitly said?

Joël

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, I think the intent is: Adam is out raping women because they would not consent to his advances otherwise. While not stated in a source, the implication is that is the way to justify the bloodline being widespread (given canon materials have 99% fully contradict it otherwise).

OK, thanks!

Still, that is so OOC for Adam

And why would Adam, made from body parts, not Mordenheim body parts, would carry Mordenheim's biological legacy?

Indeed, this bloodline is highly problematic! Or we can have a different arc of the Mordenheim family still going on these days, à la Von Zarovich?

Joël

The Dark Powers work in mysterious and twisted ways. It could also be said while Adam has never gotten a proper sexual relationship (in an effort to be more human, perhaps?) and then realized the side effect of 'Mordenheiming' the Lamordian genepool years ago. This way he can now act 'more in character' as that period of his life and development has passed and he saw the (potentially made up in his own mind perceptions) of his earlier transgressions. He may believe he spotted Victor (young looking one at that) out and about and followed him home only to realize and recognize his ailing mother is a woman he assaulted decades earlier.

It would also be twisted to think that Victor and his wife in a loving marriage were unable to do what Adam did in a violent and destructive fashion (several times potentially). Then the Mordenheim gene would easily go from one man to several people over the course of 10-20 years until Adam stops. Fast forward a few generations, that number grows substantially.

Okay a few things to consider. First, Adam containing the seed of Mordenheim is not as strange as it may seem. There's some stories/folklore out there that has bodily fluids as carrying the element of life. (Consider the alraune as growing from the ejaculate of hanged men at the gallows.) It could be conceivable that Mordenheim might use such as the "spark of life" to animate Adam, especially if you took the approach that the creation of Adam was a defiance to the gods that seemingly denied he and Elise ways to procreate naturally.

On the other hand, flesh golems generally can't reproduce. That's part of their inherent disconnection from humanity. And a big part of Adam's curse is that he is essentially alone, there is nobody related to him, nor that he can make anybody like himself- all the flesh golems created by his hand are relatively unemotional and unable to connect with him. In addition, if we're defining Adam as a serial rapist, I have problems seeing him letting his victims live long enough to give birth.

Stylistically speaking, having every Mordenheim being directly or indirectly the product of rape by Adam seems a bit egregious to me. It seems to remove any element of sympathy for Adam and instead transforms him more into something like Drakov. It also makes Lamordia a lot less of a detached, cold, or dispassionate feel that is supposed to contrast with Adam's generally hot-blooded temperament. It also makes a Mordenheim blood a lot harder to hide among the general populace simply because of the attention it would bring to the mothers and children. (Thus making the adventures of discovering whom was a Mordenheim a lot harder.

If any of the above thoughts and issues concern you, you may want to consider how to address them when/if you go with Adam siring the Mordenheim line in such a fashion.

The Lesser Evil wrote:To be consistent across the board, you'll need to think about what you'll do with the Dilisnyas. Lord Leo Dilisnya is a Dilisnya in name only because he was actually the child of an illicit affair between Dorfinya (wife of Pidlwik Dilisnya) and Gunther Cosco. Yet the true Dilisnya bloodline, the ones descending from Reinhold are cursed with the heart of darkness as the Leo Dilisnya ones are.

I always assumed that the various family curses/traits only emerged after the families entered Ravenloft (or were created whole cloth by the DPs, in the case of the Boritsi and DuBois families), with the likely exception of the nuances of the Renier family's strain of lycanthropy (although the human members' susceptibility to lycanthropy is likely a post-entry phenomenon). That my "metagame" explanation for why the family traits are so closely tied to their most famous members - after all, it cheapens Wilfred Godefroy's story if everyone in his family has always been haunted by the ghosts of the people they kill and automatically rises as a spirit after death, rather than being something unique to the tragedy of his personal history.

In the case of the Dilisnyas, Leo's line would carry the family traits because they were considered part of the Dilisnya family at the time they entered the Domains of Dread, and all branches of the family were affected.

Is Lamordia a recently formed domain, as early sources suggest, or a domain that has been around for a few centuries as per later sources.

If the second case is true, Mordenheim may have impregnated multiple women.
Elise cannot meet his base physical needs.
He may feel little guilt about using prostitutes. It is not as if he cares for these females. First a through medical examination, of course, as his regenerative ability may not make him immune to disease.

And if at some level he denies, the obsessive Doctor does feel a twinge of guilt about such actions, it may only serve to strengthen his refusal to let his wife die.

The one problem I see with this is that adultery could destroy the sympathetic element. The villain might become too horrid.

The OP's suggestion of premarital visits to prostitutes to figure out how things work seems like it might be a better idea than what I outline above.

RE Adam and human women, I would prefer him being unable to do that. His 'children' are constructs. Ymmv

Joël of the FoS wrote:Which source where this is implicitly said?

Well... I have seen several iterations of Adam, from AD&D 2nd Edition to 3.X, and the Mordenheim novels. I thought that the many references to Adam's loneliness and lack of impulse control was suggestive enough.

In any event the Dread Possibility option in Ravenloft gives us an opportunity for people that want to use this to use it, and for those that don't to ignore it.

Dread Possibility

Although Mordenheim believed that Elise was barren, he was incorrect. In fact it was Mordenheim that is incapable of fathering children. When Mordenheim committed his blasphemy against the gods and created a surrogate son, the Flesh Golem Adam, the Dark Powers took note and inextricably linked the lives of Victor Mordenheim and his creation, Adam. In addition to not being able to die unless the other is also dead, the Dark Powers granted Adam the ability to father children, something that Mordenheim cannot do. However, as a flesh golem Adam does not have the ability to pass along his bloodline. Instead it is Mordenheim's bloodline that springs from Adam's loins.

During his time as Darklord of Lamordia Adam has raped many women. In none of these cases did Adam plan the rape. In his loneliness Adam has spied certain women and fallen in love in a sense. He would leave them flowers or write them letters, left at their doorstep in the dead of night. On occasion a woman would reciprocate by writing back to Adam and leaving a reply on her doorstep, expressing a desire to meet her mysterious suitor. Only then did Adam reveal himself and the women were horrified. They yelled and screamed upon seeing his golem patchwork body, and in a rage of rejection, Adam brutally raped them.

Some of these women became pregnant, Adam was to find out later. However the children possess a remarkable family resemblance to Victor Mordenheim, clear enough that Adam can tell that it is not his seed but Victor Mordenheim's that he possesses. Although Adam has not harmed the children he is enraged at this additional humiliation. It has been some time now since Adam has raped a woman because of this fact. It is entirely due to Adam's rapes that there is a Mordenheim bloodline in Lamordia at all.