Café de Nuit

With a new edition comes yet another update to the fluff. With that I ask--as I did on the Wizards boards before it went to pot--what darklords do we want to get rid of?

I'll start with the one darklord I've always hated more than any other: Ivan Dilisnya. Having faced someone a lot like him (without the political or darklord powers) for seven years of my life, I've grown to loathe Ivan as the archetype of the self-centered, spoiled little brat. Every darklord is one to some extent, but with Ivan it seems to be his core peronality trait. So I say get rid of him. Let Ivana rule in relative peace. She's pure evil, while he's just petty if murderous.

Death is a DL that either needs some serious retooling and more personality or to be shown the door. His curse is similar to Elena Faith-hold's if you think about it, so that's probably acceptable as is.

Hmmm... On Ivan I don't know. I don't particularly like or hate him.

Death on the other hand; I believe we need something like him on Ravenloft. The necropolis archetype etc.

I don't think we need any changes to the fluff, just because a shiny new edition came out. Now there is certainly room to flush out a lot of the darklords, realms and things we have already, but outright world upheaval? No thanks. Pretty sure most people are happy with the existing status quo, and if they aren't they change it for their own games.

Changes to fluff don't entail upheavals to the world. And this thread is only about which darklords we can get rid of when we flesh things out for 4e. The extraneous, the unpopular, and the just plain stupid ones that no one likes. Except for Ivan and Death the Core lords can stay for all I care; it's the Clusters and Islands of Terror that I'm thinking of. But that's just me.

High Priest Mikhal wrote: I'll start with the one darklord I've always hated more than any other: Ivan Dilisnya. Having faced someone a lot like him (without the political or darklord powers) for seven years of my life, I've grown to loathe Ivan as the archetype of the self-centered, spoiled little brat. Every darklord is one to some extent, but with Ivan it seems to be his core peronality trait. So I say get rid of him. Let Ivana rule in relative peace. She's pure evil, while he's just petty if murderous.

It seems like Ivan is doing his job if he manages to provoke such loathing in you.

I never got the point of Von Kharkhov, or Valachan at all, really, so I took a wrecking ball to the entire domain. (It's nice to set to work changing things, knowing no one really cares about the original. Gives me room to work in.) But I think there's still enough of the old Von Kharkov in the new one that it doesn't count as tossing him out - Valachan's still there, and Kharkhov is still there, they just have a new coat of paint.

A lot of effort has been put into salvaging the terrible Darklords as opposed to just having them drop off the map. Throwing a darklord out wholesale seems like something that should be done on a GM-by-GM basis, so the language you keep using (what darklords do "we" want to dump in "our" new Ravenloft fluff) might be making some people nervous.

I prefer to fix DL's I don't like rather than fix them. I find it to be a good exercise in creativity to make them workable rather than scrap them.

Isabella wrote:Throwing a darklord out wholesale seems like something that should be done on a GM-by-GM basis, so the language you keep using (what darklords do "we" want to dump in "our" new Ravenloft fluff) might be making some people nervous.

Good points all around, Isabella, but the one above in particular. Thanks for pointing that out; I guess I am phrasing this all wrong. "What darklords do the POSTERS want to go?" would be a better way of phrasing what I'm asking.

Von Kharkhov is one I have to agree with. The domain could probably stand to be redone as well, but that's another thread. Exactly what is von Kharkov supposed to represent? A beast trying to be a man? Isn't that what Harkon Lukas is about?

I suppose everyone's going to get around to Tsien Chang, but I still think I'cath could have been something.

In my version of Ravenloft, the following domains are actually part of another domain:

Keening (part of Tepest)
Kartakass (part of "Arkandale")

Thus, their supposed domain lords still exist, but not as "real" domain lords but merely masters of their domain.

I'm actually currently working on a a addition to the Ravenloft timeline in which several events bring about a change to the core. The only thing I did was to remove Drakov. Basically there ends up being a massive war that ends in Falkovnia and at the end Drakov is "missing" and no one know where he is at. So in theory you could simply say he still is the darklord and is in hiding, or you can say he is no longer the darklord but is alive or dead. I also added a new domain to the south western of the core, but really haven't removed other darklords or domains; yet. Once I'm done with everything I plan to post it in the fan fiction section.

I'm actually in the prosess of play testing it all now in my current campaign.

Manofevil wrote:I suppose everyone's going to get around to Tsien Chang, but I still think I'cath could have been something.

Tsien Chang would be next on my list of DL's in need of a redux. After I revisited Draga Salt-Biter, I'm convinced that no DL is unfixable.

Isabella wrote:

High Priest Mikhal wrote: I'll start with the one darklord I've always hated more than any other: Ivan Dilisnya. Having faced someone a lot like him (without the political or darklord powers) for seven years of my life, I've grown to loathe Ivan as the archetype of the self-centered, spoiled little brat. Every darklord is one to some extent, but with Ivan it seems to be his core peronality trait. So I say get rid of him. Let Ivana rule in relative peace. She's pure evil, while he's just petty if murderous.

It seems like Ivan is doing his job if he manages to provoke such loathing in you.

I never got the point of Von Kharkhov, or Valachan at all, really, so I took a wrecking ball to the entire domain. (It's nice to set to work changing things, knowing no one really cares about the original. Gives me room to work in.) But I think there's still enough of the old Von Kharkov in the new one that it doesn't count as tossing him out - Valachan's still there, and Kharkhov is still there, they just have a new coat of paint.

A lot of effort has been put into salvaging the terrible Darklords as opposed to just having them drop off the map. Throwing a darklord out wholesale seems like something that should be done on a GM-by-GM basis, so the language you keep using (what darklords do "we" want to dump in "our" new Ravenloft fluff) might be making some people nervous.

I don't know what inspired VK but I recognize that the domain is inspired by the story "The Lottery." It's been awhile since I've read the story but that's what it reminds me of.

Speaking of DLs that "need" to go, I've been wondering this for awhile: Several of the living DLs are getting up there in age--Drakhov and Ivan, in particular--have no means of immortality. They could, theoretically, die from natural causes. While the DPs have slowed their aging processes or have given them the vitality of a younger person, it doesn't appear that it has stopped. What would happen? Would they be suddenly whole, healthy, AND young? Would they be reincarnated with full memories of their previous life? Or would the torch be passed?

High Priest Mikhal wrote:Exactly what is von Kharkov supposed to represent? A beast trying to be a man? Isn't that what Harkon Lukas is about?

It's true that there's some overlap, but I think the difference in their attitudes makes them different enough (just) to keep both. Lukas is a predatory animal who's learned to turn human assets and sins -- cunning and charm, treachery and cruelty -- against people, and he loves being a monster in human guise. Von Kharkov is an animal who was forced to be a man, and became addicted to it, yet couldn't bear to forfeit the beastial pleasures and savagery of his panther origins. He hates the animal lurking within himself, which makes him pathetic in a way that Lukas smugly refuses to be.

If anything, IMO, Von Kharkov has more in common with Adam than with Lukas. Neither can be as "human" as he wants, and neither really cares to forfeit the freedom from moral accountability that being a "monster" supposedly grants him.

Tykus wrote:Several of the living DLs are getting up there in age--Drakhov and Ivan, in particular--have no means of immortality. They could, theoretically, die from natural causes. While the DPs have slowed their aging processes or have given them the vitality of a younger person, it doesn't appear that it has stopped. What would happen? Would they be suddenly whole, healthy, AND young? Would they be reincarnated with full memories of their previous life? Or would the torch be passed?

Giving them a get-out-of-old-age-free pass sounds like too much of a cop-out, although I could certainly imagine one of them (probably Ivan) restoring his youth by artificial (probably ghastly) means. For Drakov, I'd be inclined to let him stay alive indefinitely, but continue to age, slowly but surely declining into a dusty, frail, near-mummified ruin of the macho thug he once was.

Ivan has made too many enemies. He's living on borrowed time (figuratively, not the poison of the same name he makes). Ratik Ubel from VRGtt Walking Dead seems like the vehicle of his imminent demise; a creature immune to his powers, able to stand against his guards, and who has a reason to want him dead.

Good points on VK, Rotipher. I guess I never thought about it that way. And I've read The Lottery, so I knew about that (actually it's a parable of how we accept evils in society until we're on the wrong side of them. The woman was all for the Lottery until she had something to lose from it).