Café de Nuit

Perhaps in the next Quoth the Raven, we should show the Ravenloft publishers how it's done and create Darklords and NPCs of women, BIPOC, LGBTQ+, nonhuman, etc. or just develop a separate netbook of superior quality.

My vote will always be for QtR to promote Ravenloft specifically, and horror in general. Leave the trendy s*** for the individual authors to include or exclude, as they see fit. I personally don't see a point in putting corners to imagination..

Manofevil wrote:Perhaps in the next Quoth the Raven, we should show the Ravenloft publishers how it's done and create Darklords and NPCs of women, BIPOC, LGBTQ+, nonhuman, etc. or just develop a separate netbook of superior quality.

Dunno if we'd manage to "show them how it's done", being as we're not PROFESSIONALS, just a bunch of fans......whoever heard of an internet fan-forum peanut gallery getting together and creating a quality RPG book, of anything, much less of Ravenloft?

Oh.....yea, about that.....

Ok, idea seconded, all in favor signify by the usual sign.......we'll get some democracy going before the FOS stomps on us

Sorry I am not interested, I prefer to use my free time to create something that I like and am genuily interested than try to show someone else what could/should have been done or correct their mistakes.

I may have to update the gay Kargat agent I had in Richemulot and his bigoted Lebentod superior.

You can find their 3rd Ed stats and background if you dig around the boards.

Mephisto wrote:Sorry I am not interested, I prefer to use my free time to create something that I like and am genuily interested than try to show someone else what could/should have been done or correct their mistakes.

On the other hand I have already dropped an idea somewhere where Nostalia Romaine could be a lesbian and even though she craves for human contact with a woman she is dreadful to embrace/kiss another woman cause the image of Camille Dilisnya comes to her mind as she is haunted with nightmares of Camille's ghost (probably the result of a failed power check when she murdered her). So she feels extremely lonely as among being an ermodenung and unable to experience sexual pleasures she is also repelled by what she craves. This frustration makes her even more cold hearted and dangerous. If we add her vanity and her "harvesting" to create her youth elixir she sould be also be regarded as a psychopath with a hatred for men, that's why she needs to harvest at least three men to create her concoction, or she just does it cause it is easier for her to murder men than women.

I also suggested in another post a better or at least newer description of the Phantom Lover. There could be an optional version where The PL is not only targeting women but men as well. I had in mind to write his story for this years QtR since last year, so maybe I will actually do that among my other articles on Falkovnia (the Vlad version) and an article on the Sea of Sorrows.

Also I had this theory years ago that Hazlik is not gay but transgender and the reason he has selected Eleni of Toyalis as his soul vessel, when he manages to exterminate the Mulan, is that he will finally enjoy having the body of a woman.

But in general I believe that there is nothing special in creating non-binary, LGBT or trans characters compared to cis-male because it is not sexuality or gender identity that defines them as good characters but rather how tragic is the hero/darklord/villain's background story.

Mephisto wrote: On the other hand I have already dropped an idea somewhere where Nostalia Romaine could be a lesbian and even though she craves for human contact with a woman she is dreadful to embrace/kiss another woman cause the image of Camille Dilisnya comes to her mind as she is haunted with nightmares of Camille's ghost (probably the result of a failed power check when she murdered her). So she feels extremely lonely as among being an ermodenung and unable to experience sexual pleasures she is also repelled by what she craves. This frustration makes her even more cold hearted and dangerous. If we add her vanity and her "harvesting" to create her youth elixir she sould be also be regarded as a psychopath with a hatred for men, that's why she needs to harvest at least three men to create her concoction, or she just does it cause it is easier for her to murder men than women.

I also suggested in another post a better or at least newer description of the Phantom Lover. There could be an optional version where The PL is not only targeting women but men as well. I had in mind to write his story for this years QtR since last year, so maybe I will actually do that among my other articles on Falkovnia (the Vlad version) and an article on the Sea of Sorrows.

Actually, I love both of these ideas - puts a whole new dimension on Nostalia, thought I might tweak around with the Phantom Lover as gender-fluid (appears as whatever gender the target desires).....much as I did with Elsepeth when I did my campaign with her as the Gentleman Caller.

But in general I believe that there is nothing special in creating non-binary, LGBT or trans characters compared to cis-male because it is not sexuality or gender identity that defines them as good characters but rather how tragic is the hero/darklord/villain's background story.

Exactly, in a nutshell. If the story is there, great, but doing it just to say "Ooooh look at me, look how inclusive and woke I am!" doesn't help us solve anything.

I still like the idea of a netbook, though, but it'd be a fine line......

OK, as people seem to be interested, I'm going to lay down some seed ideas, or idea seeds, that anybody here is free to develop as I probably won't have the time...right now.

In anticipation of clashes that might happen, I'm going to make one rule that hopefully won't be necessary: First come, first claim. The first person to claim the idea they want to develop, gets it.

There will be three corollaries to this rule:
1. If a person wishes to help develop an already claimed idea, they may approach the claimant and offer to help develop it.
1a. If a person has a take on a claimed idea, they may approach the claimant with their take and, if the claimant likes the idea and feels it is different enough from their own, they may give the person permission to publish their take as well. They need only let us know on this thread.
2. If, for what ever reason, a claimant discovers they cannot develop a claimed idea, they are free to relinquish the claim on this thread.

Ideas
A. Carmila: If VRGTR was supposed to appeal to an LGBTQ+ audience, then this is clearly it's greatest oversight. The lesbianism is right there for everyone to see. Carmila could be a Darklord, or a predator, or any number of things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla

B. The Slaver: I once read comic book where a proud southern slaver finds his wife having a quiet conversation with a male slave whom she has entered into a simple speaking friendship with and is so scandalized that he orders the slave taken to the basement and flayed. Instant Darklord material. Surely there's got to be Sapient trafficking SOMEWHERE in RL outside of old Falkovnia. I thought about suggesting that the slaver be black and the slave white but that probably wouldn't translate well in the current climate.

C. Vamps: Another comic book. A particularly greedy and lustful male vampire collects women of diverse backgrounds who catch his eye and turns them into his vampire brides. They eventually find a way to kill him (or arrange his death) and become a band of travelling predators who leave a trail of male corpses behind them.

D. J. Edgar Hoover: Imagine the chief law enforcement official of a nation who frequently destroys people for having extramarital or homosexual relationships having a homosexual relationship himself. What might a Darklord of this kind do to keep such a secret, or to deal with his guilt over it?

E. Alexander the Great: It is generally believed by most contemporary historians that Alexander the Great was involved in several sexual relationships with several men and very few with women. His closest lover is believed to be his childhood friend and fellow warrior, Hephaestion. It's also well recorded that many of Alexander's subordinates resented him for this. Especially since it meant that it took him a long time to find a woman he was even willing to try to produce an heir with. Imagine a Darklord who was raised his whole life to serve a royal family, learns that his prince who had risen to become a great king was given to this particular tendency to the point where it interferes with his duties. What crimes might this Darklord-to-be commit against his king and nation to earn his damnation?

Keep in mind that all of these would require changes in names, settings, time periods, etc. but I honestly believe they can all be used to generate Ravenloft material. I may come up with more.

It occurs to me that I have no way to create a netbook the way the chief fraternity officers do. I guess it falls to me to ask them now if they'd be willing to put this together if we put together the materials? Are they?

Interesting idea. However, doing it could paint a huge target on this website. For example, in another thread I saw that someone suggested that Dr. Mordenheim could be transgender. The description given was a clinical picture of autogynephilia. That would have been enough to cause a campaign against this site. The intentions were good; the outcome would have been awful.

WotC has sensitivity readers and PR people to ward off any potential negative backlash. This is a minor website with a very good track record of producing good content while avoiding unnecessary controversy. Anyone can write in gay (or disabled, or X) characters and they do. In my Kalidnay work the darklord is gay for the same reason that Hazlik is gay - that is, it simply makes more sense for the narrative.

Online forums with a tight focus can be easily derailed by things happening in the broader society. I take it for granted that everyone here is behaving in good faith and doesn't have it in for anyone else based on categorization. I know a lot of people that just want to go to work and do their job, but are burdened by over-political co-workers that just want to discuss politics all the time.

Let WotC do its thing, and let us do ours.

Manofevil wrote:Keep in mind that all of these would require changes in names, settings, time periods, etc. but I honestly believe they can all be used to generate Ravenloft material. I may come up with more.

Not Carmilla and Alexander. She was 1872, so long past public domain by now and very easy to incorporate.

That said, a word of caution: Anyone potentially looking at Carmilla should absolutely avoid any and all direct inspiration from the recent Netflix Castlevania show. While a Ravenloft domain ruled by a lesbian vampire tetrarchy is thematically rather appealing for numerous reasons, it's simply "already been done" and arguably done extremely well. So do keep that in mind.

For those that might ignore that warning, as my writing mentor always told me, "Don't steal from anyone else's writing until you can do so without leaving any trace to the original." Hope that helps!

— onmyoji

tomokaicho wrote:For example, in another thread I saw that someone suggested that Dr. Mordenheim could be transgender. The description given was a clinical picture of autogynephilia. That would have been enough to cause a campaign against this site. The intentions were good; the outcome would have been awful.

Having played a part in that, I need to underscore that this was the accidental result of about five minutes of thought into it. Neither of us were necessarily looking to create a better justification for the genderswap. We were merely spitballing out loud on the forum. Clearly if anything like this were to be published, it would be more meticulously worked on to avoid backlash at all costs. The only reason it keeps being brought up is that it only took us five minutes to find a better narrative basis for the WotC-assigned genderswap than their complete silence on the matter. But still, that's only step one if someone wants to go that route. I can't speak for Mephisto, but I absolutely agree it needs a lot of work. Though it still seems like a worthwhile potentiality to me.

Also, to be clear, autogynephilia involves the arousal of a man seeing himself as female. There was no sexual desire painted on Mordenheim to change bodies to a female in our description. It was his (mad) scientific urge to create life that led him to realize that his male body was quite limited and a female body is simply better suited for the creation of new life that Mordenheim seeks. It was purely (mad) scientific and never sexualized.

— onmyoji

Manofevil wrote:B. The Slaver: I once read comic book where a proud southern slaver finds his wife having a quiet conversation with a male slave whom she has entered into a simple speaking friendship with and is so scandalized that he orders the slave taken to the basement and flayed. Instant Darklord material. Surely there's got to be Sapient trafficking SOMEWHERE in RL outside of old Falkovnia. I thought about suggesting that the slaver be black and the slave white but that probably wouldn't translate well in the current climate.

Yes it would be problematic kind of reversed racism ("good white folk" enslaved by the "big bad black man"), if somewhone actually does that it should be as it really was (s***y white people enslaving black people) or the slaver could be black enslaving black people as this was something that was also done. In Ravenloft there is a slavers ring based on Nova Vaasa and Hazlan.

Manofevil wrote:E. Alexander the Great: It is generally believed by most contemporary historians that Alexander the Great was involved in several sexual relationships with several men and very few with women. His closest lover is believed to be his childhood friend and fellow warrior, Hephaestion. It's also well recorded that many of Alexander's subordinates resented him for this. Especially since it meant that it took him a long time to find a woman he was even willing to try to produce an heir with. Imagine a Darklord who was raised his whole life to serve a royal family, learns that his prince who had risen to become a great king was given to this particular tendency to the point where it interferes with his duties. What crimes might this Darklord-to-be commit against his king and nation to earn his damnation?

Sexuality in Ancient Greece was really different from the post Christianity views. There was no particularly tedency it was the norm, women where usually used to procreate and men enjoyed sex with all sexes. The Sacred Band of Thebes was a troop of select soldiers, consisting of 150 pairs of male lovers which formed the elite force of the Theban army in the 4th century BC, ending Spartan domination with the battle of The Battle of Leuctra on 6 July 371 BC between the Boeotians led by the Thebans, and the Spartans along with their allies. Philip II of Macedon, who studied and lived in Thebes, was no doubt heavily influenced by the battle to develop his own, highly effective approach to tactics and armament. In turn, his son, Alexander, would go on to develop his father's theories to an entirely new level. Many innovations of Philip and Alexander are traced to this battle.

Manofevil wrote:A. Carmila: If VRGTR was supposed to appeal to an LGBTQ+ audience, then this is clearly it's greatest oversight. The lesbianism is right there for everyone to see. Carmila could be a Darklord, or a predator, or any number of things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla

Rock gave us a partially Carmilla inspired vampire Darklord named Camille Churnstone in QtR 25.

Thanks for the shout-out. ^_^

I also added a disclaimer at the end of the Lilliend Gazetteer, in which Camille made her appearance. It felt important to me to point out that Camille's evil was not down to her sexuality, but the fact that she was a nigh-solipsistic narcissist, who let her own desires guide her, with no regard for anyone else's wishes.
Camille is attracted to women only, but that is in a considerable part because she would only accept a partner who closely reflects her. She can only truly love herself in the end; that is why she initially fixated on her own twin sister, and why she is now cursed by the fact that she has lost sight of her own original self-image.

In short, Camille is a despicable, selfish creature. She is not meant in any way to represent or be a statement about real lesbians.

Opinion: If equality and representation is the goal, then adding disclaimers is somewhat counterproductive to the cause. If you don't add disclaimers justifying the evil of a non-LGBTQ+ character (or mentioning that sexuality etc is not the root of said evil) then why do it for an LGBTQ+ character? Treat the character as a character, and don't be too concerned with peacekeeping. Equal representation is just that: for better and for worse.

We (creative tinkerers) need to stop treating others (characters, players, readers) as different (in that superficial/peripheral way) and just focus on what it is you really want to highlight. Too much fear or avoidance can sometimes lead to a stronger spotlight...

That's just me. Do what thou wilt.