Café de Nuit

So if you all might excuse a question that probably everyone but me could answer, I'm looking more into Darkon and I'm finding some difficulty determining what the differences are between the Kargat and the Kargatane. Even the wiki here doesn't help clarify things much. (Note: I mean specifically the in-game groups. I'm not talking about the real-world group called the Kargatane.)

Can anyone either direct me to the distinctions between the two, or otherwise sum up their relationship?

Also, while I'm here, how is "Kargatane" meant to be pronounced? (I speak Japanese, so the last three letters make my linguistics brain want to pronounce it as "kar-guh-TAH-nay," but I'm absolutely certain that's wrong. Is it meant to be "kar-guh-TAIN," or perhaps something different?)

Thanks!

— onmyoji

The Kargat is the spy/assassin organization, mostly comprised of lycanthrops, vampires and other intelligent undead; the Kargatane are mortal followers/henchmen of the Kargat, and they are mostly ignorant of the the workings of their masters, believing them to be seekers of immortality (usually via alchemy).

Lord_Pruitt wrote:The Kargat is the spy/assassin organization, mostly comprised of lycanthrops, vampires and other intelligent undead; the Kargatane are mortal followers/henchmen of the Kargat, and they are mostly ignorant of the the workings of their masters, believing them to be seekers of immortality (usually via alchemy).

OK, so it's basically the organization, and then its front. Is that an appropriate way of looking at it?

— onmyoji

The Kargat are the feared secret police. EVERYONE knows they exist and no one wants to deal with them if it can be avoided. They work for Azalin and people know that as well.

Kargatane are mortal people who think they're part of a secret cult seeking immortality, but have actually been imbibing little bits of blood from Kargat Nosferatu, which puts them under those vampires' control.
They are seemingly normal people with normal jobs and a place in normal life. The public does NOT know about the Kargatane. The Kargatane act as a network of informants and catspaws, whose activities can not be traced back to the Kargat, and by extension Azalin.

Kargat are high-level spies and assassins, the secret police.
Kargatane are the Kargat's even MORE secret support network of informants and disposable flunkies.

Rock wrote:The Kargat are the feared secret police. EVERYONE knows they exist and no one wants to deal with them if it can be avoided. They work for Azalin and people know that as well.

Kargatane are mortal people who think they're part of a secret cult seeking immortality, but have actually been imbibing little bits of blood from Kargat Nosferatu, which puts them under those vampires' control.
They are seemingly normal people with normal jobs and a place in normal life. The public does NOT know about the Kargatane. The Kargatane act as a network of informants and catspaws, whose activities can not be traced back to the Kargat, and by extension Azalin.

Kargat are high-level spies and assassins, the secret police.
Kargatane are the Kargat's even MORE secret support network of informants and disposable flunkies.

OK. Perfect. So I assume then that Kargatane are "recruited" through various means of subterfuge and never ever realize that the person who is recruiting them is in the Kargat. I assume, by extension, the "secret immortality cult" isn't the only cover the Kargat uses for this.

My players have unknowingly befriended a member of the Kargat, and even though he knows better than to say the K-word, they wouldn't even know what it is at this point anyway. He's their bonded NPC at this point, so I want to be sure I have enough know-how to see how things will play out. Of course, Azalin will only need to hear they were present for the first verse of the Hexad before he takes personal interest in them. We'll have to see what he thinks once they remain present for the second, third, and fourth verses as well. By that time, who knows? They might be card-carrying Kargat members.

— onmyoji

The Kargatine were also, frankly, way more fleshed out than the Kargat ever was, probably because the secret societies got real focus right around the time Azalin took his big dirt nap. A network of informants and researchers centered around the goal of immortality is a nice wrinkle that gives them a lot of flavor, it'd be nice if the Kargat had something similar outside of the typical civil war stuff.

Years ago, I started to try and write a netbook about the Kargat. I posted most of what I wrote here. It might help inspire you.

For pronouniation i've worked on the assumption that the Kargat are named after the town of Karg so would be pronounce as Karg-at. The Kargatane being further extention would then be Karg-at-ane.

So according to Cryptic Allegiances booklet from the Forbidden Lore boxed set, a Kargat vampire may command directly up to 12 upper level Kargatane flunkies, each of whom deals with a subordinate level of flunkies under them. Both tiers don't generally understand what they're dealing with. The upper tier of the Kargatane drink alchemical concoctions of vampire blood as part of these weird rituals with alchemy they think gives them immortality. However, the rituals themselves do nothing- they're merely there to conceal the nature of the vampire blood, the true source of the ritual's supposed power. This drinking of vampire blood gives temporary boosts to ability scores and slows the aging process, but also becomes charmed by the vampire. In any case, each of the upper tier mortals of the Kargatane leads on members of the lower tier with vaguer promises of immortality. An example of a Kargatane front operation would be the Seekers from the Chilling Tales book. So you might say that the Kargatane has some structural similarities to both a cult and a pyramid scheme.

The Kargatane is cell-based, with each cell commanded by a single Kargat vampire as described above. However, it's also said that the Kargatane is ultimately controlled by Lady Kazandra, so we can infer that every of the Kargat vampires commanding a Kargatane cell must report back to Lady Kazandra.

Also note that while all of the Kargatane are, directly or indirectly, controlled by the Kargat, not all of the Kargat is necessarily involved with the Kargatane. Only Kargat vampires (and likely only specific Kargat vampires) command Kargatane cells.

Suddenly, I find myself wondering what would happen if vampires with actual alchemic abilities - like Ladislav Mircea or maybe a vampiric Dread Doppelganger from Paridon - got in on this scam.
Blood rituals infused with genuine alchemical concoctions might have very ... interesting effects on the Kargatane.

Thanks everyone!

The Lesser Evil wrote:So according to Cryptic Allegiances booklet from the Forbidden Lore boxed set, a Kargat vampire may command directly up to 12 upper level Kargatane flunkies, each of whom deals with a subordinate level of flunkies under them. Both tiers don't generally understand what they're dealing with. The upper tier of the Kargatane drink alchemical concoctions of vampire blood as part of these weird rituals with alchemy they think gives them immortality. However, the rituals themselves do nothing- they're merely there to conceal the nature of the vampire blood, the true source of the ritual's supposed power. This drinking of vampire blood gives temporary boosts to ability scores and slows the aging process, but also becomes charmed by the vampire. In any case, each of the upper tier mortals of the Kargatane leads on members of the lower tier with vaguer promises of immortality. An example of a Kargatane front operation would be the Seekers from the Chilling Tales book. So you might say that the Kargatane has some structural similarities to both a cult and a pyramid scheme.

The Kargatane is cell-based, with each cell commanded by a single Kargat vampire as described above. However, it's also said that the Kargatane is ultimately controlled by Lady Kazandra, so we can infer that every of the Kargat vampires commanding a Kargatane cell must report back to Lady Kazandra.

Also note that while all of the Kargatane are, directly or indirectly, controlled by the Kargat, not all of the Kargat is necessarily involved with the Kargatane. Only Kargat vampires (and likely only specific Kargat vampires) command Kargatane cells.

This is very helpful. Though parts of it I'm going to have to let go of. The Kargat member they've befriended is the werewolf Venrith Chole (only known through one of the Gazetteers, and really only famous for being around for the Requiem), so he clearly wouldn't lead them if he did somehow finagle their entry into the Kargatane. As a werewolf, Chole seemed to be a good choice for GC 1, given Kartakass. All that aside, I don't really want all three of my players to have characters that are being *controlled* in any way. Manipulated, sure. But they have to keep their own agency. So I'll have to edit that, or perhaps just make it like they're potentially becoming intro Kargatane members.

I'm planning to run GC 1-4 (5 and 6 are for the next Strahd-based campaign), Thoughts of Darkness, and MAYBE the Grim Harvest trilogy. IF (big if) we do make it to the Grim Harvest AND they're still besties with Chole, then I kind of want to run an inverted GH 1—with my players assisting the Kargat against a team they'll discover later are other outlanders trapped in Ravenloft like them. Chole will be in and out of the modules, but there'll always be a Kargat member watching during the GC modules. After the players make GC 1 happen, there's no way Azalin won't be watching their every moves. Yeah, it's a pipe dream, but it could feasibly happen.

— onmyoji

Rock wrote:Suddenly, I find myself wondering what would happen if vampires with actual alchemic abilities - like Ladislav Mircea or maybe a vampiric Dread Doppelganger from Paridon - got in on this scam.
Blood rituals infused with genuine alchemical concoctions might have very ... interesting effects on the Kargatane.

Of course, doppelganger plasm is already different from blood, so there could be some significant effects before doing more alchemy. It was infused with positive energy in life and had some degree of inherent mobility, so the exact effects of undeath on plasm are worth considering. Does it perhaps become similarly infused with negative energy?

Delthirius from QtR 26 also has the taint of the Lake of Sounds in his plasm, which would be another level of complication before alchemy gets involved. Since his father was a former Kargat agent, he could potentially be aware of the use of vampire blood on the Kargatane, so it would make sense for him to experiment with alchemy and thralls. I wish I had thought about that at the time.

The vampire blood they use for extended life are thought to be concoctions of alchemy.
It is what they are told to hide the fact they use vampire blood, not actual alchemy involved, maybe pseudo-alchemy.
Gazetteer Vol.2 p.37

Yes, we know. We were just speculating on how the rituals might change with the addition of actual (High) Alchemy.

Rock wrote:Yes, we know. We were just speculating on how the rituals might change with the addition of actual (High) Alchemy.

"Suddenly, I find myself wondering what would happen if vampires with actual alchemic abilities "

Sorry, must have missread that one.