Communication between clergy in & a god outside of Ravenloft
Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:40 am
I would like to discuss communication between a powerful clergy, the Church of the Lawgiver, inside the Land of Mists and its god, The Lawgiver (Bane), on the outside looking in. In doing so I am drawing on this previous thread http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=3958 treating the question of "communicating with other worlds from RL".
In the prior thread DeepShadow observed that the Sending spell would enable communication between an individual within the Land of Mists and one without. Indeed, this is one viable explanation of how Vecna, trapped in the Land of Mists, was able to get instructions to his cultists, outside in the world of Oerth, necessary for the orchestration of the events in Cordell's and Miller's Die Vecna Die module. DeepShadow equally observed that the Scrying spell also can reach beyond the Land of Mists. Combine the Scrying and Message spells and a degree of two-way communication is enabled.
A key question is whether one can scry, not only out of the Land of Mists, but also into it? If so, the use of a pair of Scrying spells enables near seamless two-way communication. And in a higher octave, can a god of rank 1 or higher use his or her remote sensing and remote communication ability to observe events and communicate with individuals in the Land of Mists? Is there any canon concerning this, either in terms of actual rules or in terms of examples?
Clerics in the Land of Mists, as discussed in the Unspoken Pact, are cut off from their gods in significant ways. Among these is that the Commune spell simply does not work. And clerics do not have access to the Sending spell. But there are other tools available, principally the Scrying and Messaging spells and the Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally and Greater Planar Ally spells. The Messaging spell is not available to standard clerics but is available to cloister clerics as a 0th level spell. Scrying itself, like Commune, is a 5th level spell. The Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally and Greater Planar Ally spells are respectively 4th, 6th and 8th level. A powerful clergy, such as that of the Lawgiver, which finds itself thrust into a world where the Commune spell fails and its god suddenly has become distant and inscrutable seems unlikely to meekly acquiesce to this new reality.
An appropriate divine representative, one in charge of mortal revelation for example, can be called with a Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, or Greater Planar Ally spell. This may entail a payment of some sort to the called representative, but the clergy should be all too happy to bear this cost given the stakes. Yes, the Dark Powers will twist the spell such that the representative will not be able to leave and may even be violently unhappy about his or her effective imprisonment, but in the interim the clergy will have learned at least some answers and will have re-established a tentative line of communication with its god. At worst, if the god can’t see into the Land of Mists, he or she can still instruct all of his or her representatives to carry whatever message that he or she wants communicated to the clergy by the next one of them that is called. This message, rather than being to stop calling anyone since they can’t return, is more likely to be to start calling imps, or their equivalent, since they are disposable. Compliance with this very instruction would constitute evidence to the god that his or her messages were getting through.
Much more efficiently, a cloister cleric can cast a Scrying spell and a Message spell to open communication with the divine representative charged with mortal revelation. At worst, this is nearly as good as, and in some respects better than, a Commune spell. At best, near seamless communication can be established subsequently with pairs of Scrying spells.
DeepShadow suggested in the previous thread that the ban on Commune and Contact Other Plane spells is about preserving moral ambiguity. Men must decide for themselves, rather than seeking the answers from a higher power. Does this suggest that the use of the Scrying and Messaging spells or the Planar Ally spells to seek answers from a higher power should draw the attention and the interference of the Dark Powers? Are callings to this end intercepted and imposters dispatched by the Dark Powers to mislead such inquisitive clergy? Or, as part of the Unspoken Pact, do gods contacted through their representatives by these alternative means simply choose to reveal nothing that would spare men from having to decide for themselves?
The Unspoken Pact posits that gods are not to directly interfere in the ways of mortals in the Land of Mists. And in exchange the Dark Powers do not meddle in the ways of the gods. Is the latter letting gods receive souls pledged to their names and permitting gods to bestow spells as they see fit upon the clergies that serve them? And what is the former? Lesser gods may not come and go as they would in the Land of Mists. There is no example of a greater god doing so aside from Vecna becoming one to escape the Land of Mists. A rare (perhaps unique?) example of divine intervention from outside appears in the Shadowborn novel. The paladin Alexi Shadowborn seems to receive a warning from his god when he is in danger of falling. But Alexi, suitably nudged, is still left to choose for himself.
Where this gets especially interesting concerns, not moral ambiguity, but rather the nature of the Land of Mists, of the Dark Powers, and of their relationship to the gods. The Discern Location spell fails to name the Land of Mists. What does a god know about these matters and what can he or she tell his or her clergy about them? Does he or she know more than he or she can tell either because he or she abides by the terms of the Unspoken Pact or because the Dark Powers censor his or her communication with his or her clergy?
For the Church of the Lawgiver, there are two especially crucial instances of communication with the divine. First, there is the period immediately following the emergence of Nova Vaasa with the new sense of divine distance and divine inscrutability. What answers and orders do divine representatives called by Planar Ally spells carry? And what answers and orders are forthcoming from scrying enabled communication? Second, there is the period immediately following the Grand Conjunction during which the clergy lost access to their spells. Again what answers and orders do divine representatives called by Planar Ally spells carry? And what answers and orders are forthcoming from scrying enabled communication?
This latter period is of course tied up with the death of Bane in Toril. Do called or contacted individuals report that their former master is dead? If it is the Dark Powers that now grant the clergy their spells, do the Dark Powers intervene to conceal this fact and to prevent speculation on the matter? And what about later, when Bane returns to life in Toril? Do called or contacted representatives report now that their master has returned to existence? Do the Dark Powers relinquish back to Bane the bestowal of spells upon his clergy? And how is the continuity of spell bestowal during his death explained? Bane’s representatives are, of course, under no obligation to be honest with the clergy about what happened, and even the representatives should be somewhat puzzled by the situation. And the most perceptive of the clergy may well realise that they are being lied to by divine representatives. Is the threat of schism in the Church of the Lawgiver an extension into the mortal coil of the confused and/or dubious answers given by divine representatives and even confusion and discord among these divine representatives?
Canon and speculation are both welcome. And comparisons to how the Dark Powers treat/thwart the efforts to investigate them by the Fraternity of Shadows might be fruitful.
Thank you,
cure
In the prior thread DeepShadow observed that the Sending spell would enable communication between an individual within the Land of Mists and one without. Indeed, this is one viable explanation of how Vecna, trapped in the Land of Mists, was able to get instructions to his cultists, outside in the world of Oerth, necessary for the orchestration of the events in Cordell's and Miller's Die Vecna Die module. DeepShadow equally observed that the Scrying spell also can reach beyond the Land of Mists. Combine the Scrying and Message spells and a degree of two-way communication is enabled.
A key question is whether one can scry, not only out of the Land of Mists, but also into it? If so, the use of a pair of Scrying spells enables near seamless two-way communication. And in a higher octave, can a god of rank 1 or higher use his or her remote sensing and remote communication ability to observe events and communicate with individuals in the Land of Mists? Is there any canon concerning this, either in terms of actual rules or in terms of examples?
Clerics in the Land of Mists, as discussed in the Unspoken Pact, are cut off from their gods in significant ways. Among these is that the Commune spell simply does not work. And clerics do not have access to the Sending spell. But there are other tools available, principally the Scrying and Messaging spells and the Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally and Greater Planar Ally spells. The Messaging spell is not available to standard clerics but is available to cloister clerics as a 0th level spell. Scrying itself, like Commune, is a 5th level spell. The Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally and Greater Planar Ally spells are respectively 4th, 6th and 8th level. A powerful clergy, such as that of the Lawgiver, which finds itself thrust into a world where the Commune spell fails and its god suddenly has become distant and inscrutable seems unlikely to meekly acquiesce to this new reality.
An appropriate divine representative, one in charge of mortal revelation for example, can be called with a Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, or Greater Planar Ally spell. This may entail a payment of some sort to the called representative, but the clergy should be all too happy to bear this cost given the stakes. Yes, the Dark Powers will twist the spell such that the representative will not be able to leave and may even be violently unhappy about his or her effective imprisonment, but in the interim the clergy will have learned at least some answers and will have re-established a tentative line of communication with its god. At worst, if the god can’t see into the Land of Mists, he or she can still instruct all of his or her representatives to carry whatever message that he or she wants communicated to the clergy by the next one of them that is called. This message, rather than being to stop calling anyone since they can’t return, is more likely to be to start calling imps, or their equivalent, since they are disposable. Compliance with this very instruction would constitute evidence to the god that his or her messages were getting through.
Much more efficiently, a cloister cleric can cast a Scrying spell and a Message spell to open communication with the divine representative charged with mortal revelation. At worst, this is nearly as good as, and in some respects better than, a Commune spell. At best, near seamless communication can be established subsequently with pairs of Scrying spells.
DeepShadow suggested in the previous thread that the ban on Commune and Contact Other Plane spells is about preserving moral ambiguity. Men must decide for themselves, rather than seeking the answers from a higher power. Does this suggest that the use of the Scrying and Messaging spells or the Planar Ally spells to seek answers from a higher power should draw the attention and the interference of the Dark Powers? Are callings to this end intercepted and imposters dispatched by the Dark Powers to mislead such inquisitive clergy? Or, as part of the Unspoken Pact, do gods contacted through their representatives by these alternative means simply choose to reveal nothing that would spare men from having to decide for themselves?
The Unspoken Pact posits that gods are not to directly interfere in the ways of mortals in the Land of Mists. And in exchange the Dark Powers do not meddle in the ways of the gods. Is the latter letting gods receive souls pledged to their names and permitting gods to bestow spells as they see fit upon the clergies that serve them? And what is the former? Lesser gods may not come and go as they would in the Land of Mists. There is no example of a greater god doing so aside from Vecna becoming one to escape the Land of Mists. A rare (perhaps unique?) example of divine intervention from outside appears in the Shadowborn novel. The paladin Alexi Shadowborn seems to receive a warning from his god when he is in danger of falling. But Alexi, suitably nudged, is still left to choose for himself.
Where this gets especially interesting concerns, not moral ambiguity, but rather the nature of the Land of Mists, of the Dark Powers, and of their relationship to the gods. The Discern Location spell fails to name the Land of Mists. What does a god know about these matters and what can he or she tell his or her clergy about them? Does he or she know more than he or she can tell either because he or she abides by the terms of the Unspoken Pact or because the Dark Powers censor his or her communication with his or her clergy?
For the Church of the Lawgiver, there are two especially crucial instances of communication with the divine. First, there is the period immediately following the emergence of Nova Vaasa with the new sense of divine distance and divine inscrutability. What answers and orders do divine representatives called by Planar Ally spells carry? And what answers and orders are forthcoming from scrying enabled communication? Second, there is the period immediately following the Grand Conjunction during which the clergy lost access to their spells. Again what answers and orders do divine representatives called by Planar Ally spells carry? And what answers and orders are forthcoming from scrying enabled communication?
This latter period is of course tied up with the death of Bane in Toril. Do called or contacted individuals report that their former master is dead? If it is the Dark Powers that now grant the clergy their spells, do the Dark Powers intervene to conceal this fact and to prevent speculation on the matter? And what about later, when Bane returns to life in Toril? Do called or contacted representatives report now that their master has returned to existence? Do the Dark Powers relinquish back to Bane the bestowal of spells upon his clergy? And how is the continuity of spell bestowal during his death explained? Bane’s representatives are, of course, under no obligation to be honest with the clergy about what happened, and even the representatives should be somewhat puzzled by the situation. And the most perceptive of the clergy may well realise that they are being lied to by divine representatives. Is the threat of schism in the Church of the Lawgiver an extension into the mortal coil of the confused and/or dubious answers given by divine representatives and even confusion and discord among these divine representatives?
Canon and speculation are both welcome. And comparisons to how the Dark Powers treat/thwart the efforts to investigate them by the Fraternity of Shadows might be fruitful.
Thank you,
cure