Café de Nuit

Igor the Henchman wrote:

RedundantZombie#33 wrote:Will it ever be given to someone who understands the setting?

Depends on what is meant by "understanding". As far as I know, almost everyone who has ever contributed to Ravenloft had a rich knowledge of the setting and its tone. All of them. Bill Connors, Chrisitie Golden, Lisa Smedman, James Lowder, Steve, the Kargatane, Brett King, the Dark Duo... all these different authors do "get" the setting... but each in his own way. Which naturally results in products with different flavors.

The only time I remember where RL products ever had a completely uniform flavor was when the Kargatane were the only ones working on it (RLCS, VRA, GazI & GazII). These guys really know how to work together well. Almost too well, I might even add. For, unfortunately, all their carefully balanced plans shattered like glass as new authors started to pour in their own, original ideas. So the K packed and left. And it wasn't for lack of understanding the setting on either side.

I think it was a lack of understanding about the principles of the setting, not the setting itself.

Sorry. I haven't made myself clear (damn zombie brain!).

I ment from now on. I don't think they would call new writters to do the setting. And the current WotC writters are good, but they just aren't RL stuff.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:Which gets me wondering, how much did the liscensing actually cost?

At a conservative estimate, I'd guess at least $50,000.

And that's conservative.

I'm not sure Ravenloft could be worth that much, if we're just talking licensing charges (up-front money and guarenteed payments).

But, I really don't know, because I don't know how well things are going in the RPG arena overall. (I know small-time pdf sales these days and that's it. )

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote: I think it was a lack of understanding about the principles of the setting, not the setting itself.

That was what I meant, too.

RedundantZombie#33 wrote: And the current WotC writters are good, but they just aren't RL stuff.

I actually believed Brett King wasn't "RL stuff", until I read the intro in VRG to Shadow Fey. I prefer to remain optimistic on things like that.

So I come back from the mountains of Corse to find out... That Ravenloft is DEAD AGAIN?

...
...
I think I'll go get drunk.

Oh, by the way... My compliments to every author of the line (hmmm... Except those of CoD, really ).
I really enjoyed your work.

All right, where's my beer?

Well, the last week was an odd week for me to take vacation AFK

For the record, the FoS knew from Wiecke’s mails to me that an important announcement was due soon to settle the question of the release date of VRGttM. Between us, as you may have guessed, the FoS’s discussions were half expecting this news.

Is it a bad news about new Ravenloft books being out? I’m currently inclined to think so: as David said, Ravenloft could probably join the other D&D settings not supported anymore by WotC. The best place to look for the possible resurgence of the Ravenloft name within WotC’s umbrella will be with the Heroes of Horrors Book release next October, or the news / material accompanying it if the book is already finished and in print. If Ravenloft doesn’t pop then, it’s most probably over.

By the way, I understand WW’s Mr Wiecke’s refusal to give permission about getting cut material out, since WW doesn’t have the RL rights anymore. We should ask WotC instead. This said, we’ll contact WotC soon to find out about their plans, and about the “lost material” cut from d20 Ravenloft books. That will also clarify what the FoS can do in this new context.

(By the way, I know next to nothing about WotC’s inside structure: if anybody has an idea of whom to contact, i.e. either name or title of the person we should contact, please PM me)

However, as Stu and Steve Miller wrote here recently, the great Ravenloft setting will be dead only when the fan base will be gone.

And don’t worry, the FoS will stay here as the best place to exchange ideas for Ravenloft!

Joël

We need to get some feedback to see if the magazines will start accepting Ravenloft adventures, its the only good that comes out of all this.

Personally, there's one thing I haven't liked much since the appearance of 3E and which I deem may not be a good sign for RL. The whole line has become much more focused on mechanics than on mood and setting. Take a look at the Monster Manuals, for instance, without any concern for habitat and ecology, why a monster would attack and how it would do it.
This may be a petty bickering, but I have constantly felt that much is being simplified, perhaps to attract to a younger age, and brought down to the roll-playing, and little else. That style of game doesn't seem to go well with RL.

Ail

Ail wrote:Personally, there's one thing I haven't liked much since the appearance of 3E and which I deem may not be a good sign for RL. The whole line has become much more focused on mechanics than on mood and setting. Take a look at the Monster Manuals, for instance, without any concern for habitat and ecology, why a monster would attack and how it would do it.
This may be a petty bickering, but I have constantly felt that much is being simplified, perhaps to attract to a younger age, and brought down to the roll-playing, and little else. That style of game doesn't seem to go well with RL.

Ail

Uhhh...what?

Do you even remember 2nd edition?

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:
I am not, however, going to congratulate nor thank Jackie and Nicky. This isn't because I'm a bastard, but because it would be hypocritical of me to congratulate them when I've been most vocal about my feelings towards their work. However, I hope the two of you can learn from your mistakes and continue to work in the RPG industry.

I would like to say though, that I think it isn't Ravenloft's time to die and when given to someone who understands the setting, it'll be back in print in no time.

I would not expect you to thank us. Nevertheless, we will take your implied comments about us and file them where they belong. I respect your decision to remain true to yourself and your opinions.

We always learn from our mistakes, but Ravenloft was not one of them. We were playing Ravenloft when the setting began and have been collecting material for as long as the setting has been around. We have worked in the industry for awhile and will most likely continue to do so.

We have already thanked our authors, artists and editors. We have thanked the fans. You may omit yourself from those thanks if you feel it best.

Sincerely,
Jackie Cassada, outgoing Ravenloft developer

*ups* I detect some bad vibrationss up there....anyway, to the point

Willowhugger wrote: Uhhh...what?

Do you even remember 2nd edition?

I remember second edition, and I liked the Monster Format in the different MC's. I cannot quite get used to them. I agree with Ail, it doesn't feel like good roleplaying material, istead it feels like "take these stats and add them to whichever creature you can" kind of creature. But then again, its just a matter of taste, and I can live with the new format. No major complaints.

Daisu wrote:We need to get some feedback to see if the magazines will start accepting Ravenloft adventures, its the only good that comes out of all this.

Dragon Magazine has already stated that they received good response to a yearly issue of revisiting old settings, they plan on making the January 2006 issue the next one. We can hope there will be some Ravenloft article then.
I doubt we would see a Ravenloft adventure in Dungeon Magazine, they are going strong with their Age of Worms Adventure Path, and Vampires of Waterdeep Adventure Path. Probably the best we can get there is a general horror-theme now and again (most likely yearly in October).

Update from Gencon:

I talked to people at both the WW and WotC booths about the future of RL, and got a tiny bit of scoop.

I didn't catch the guy's name at WW, but he said it was WW's decision to end the line and that the reason was "We felt we did all that we set out to do, and there wasn't many other places to go with it." Now, I don't know if that's marketing speak for poor sales, or if they thought that non-core Gaz's or MotJH or future volumes of VRA, VRG, LotB, or DT&DL were bad ideas, or what. In any case, since what's done is done, I didn't push any further, figuring my energy was better spent at WotC.

Over there, I spoke to David Noonian, who apparently wrote Complete Divine according to a quick google search. I don't know what else he did. Nice guy. He said that the license reverting to WotC was very new info to them, and they have just barely started thinking about what to do about it. He said that things move very slowly at a company as large as WotC, and there will be many months of meetings and brainstorming before anything is done about it. But encouragingly, he said that he and many of the other designers are big RL fans, and would jump at the chance to do something with the line, if the company decides to do so. Also, RL was a big inspiration for Heroes of Horror, and while not explicitly set in the setting, should be quite useful to us, and parts of it at least should reflect the mood of RL.

I don't know if he will have any say in what happens, but just in case, I made sure to tell him how big a fan of RL I was, and that there were a lot of us out there, clamouring for more stuff. I would imagine our best bet would be letter writing to tell WotC how much we want the line to conitnue. That, and talking up the setting wherever we can that WotC can hear it. (Cons, Dragon/Dungeon magazine submissions, the WotC boards, etc.)

So, unless I was totally lied to, it looks like:
a) it was WW's idea, not WotC's
b) it has nothing to do with HoH, which might actually be a good book.
and
c) nothing has been decided for the future yet, so any small influence we might have should probably be brought to bear soon, while they are deciding...

EDIT:Oh, and one more thing: I asked the WW guy about MotJH and he said aside from VRGttM, they don't plan on releasing any more material, so I guess we can consider it officially dead. Sorry, folks...

gonzoron wrote:Update from Gencon:

I talked to people at both the WW and WotC booths about the future of RL, and got a tiny bit of scoop.

I didn't catch the guy's name at WW, but he said it was WW's decision to end the line and that the reason was "We felt we did all that we set out to do, and there wasn't many other places to go with it." Now, I don't know if that's marketing speak for poor sales, or if they thought that non-core Gaz's or MotJH or future volumes of VRA, VRG, LotB, or DT&DL were bad ideas, or what. In any case, since what's done is done, I didn't push any further, figuring my energy was better spent at WotC.

Over there, I spoke to David Noonian, who apparently wrote Complete Divine according to a quick google search. I don't know what else he did. Nice guy. He said that the license reverting to WotC was very new info to them, and they have just barely started thinking about what to do about it. He said that things move very slowly at a company as large as WotC, and there will be many months of meetings and brainstorming before anything is done about it. But encouragingly, he said that he and many of the other designers are big RL fans, and would jump at the chance to do something with the line, if the company decides to do so. Also, RL was a big inspiration for Heroes of Horror, and while not explicitly set in the setting, should be quite useful to us, and parts of it at least should reflect the mood of RL.

I don't know if he will have any say in what happens, but just in case, I made sure to tell him how big a fan of RL I was, and that there were a lot of us out there, clamouring for more stuff. I would imagine our best bet would be letter writing to tell WotC how much we want the line to conitnue. That, and talking up the setting wherever we can that WotC can hear it. (Cons, Dragon/Dungeon magazine submissions, the WotC boards, etc.)

So, unless I was totally lied to, it looks like:
a) it was WW's idea, not WotC's
b) it has nothing to do with HoH, which might actually be a good book.
and
c) nothing has been decided for the future yet, so any small influence we might have should probably be brought to bear soon, while they are deciding...

See now I'm confused.

There was VRGtt Mists on schedule, and, apparently, VRGtt Serial Killer in the works. So why would WW cancel?

I can think of reasons why WotC might cancel the liscence, but not WW. I don't buy that "We felt we did all that we set out to do, and there wasn't many other places to go with it." line at all.