Café de Nuit

cure wrote:And more to the point, how many other Vistani and half-Vistani women do we have descriptions of? Madame Eva, Madame Eva's replacement, Madame Radanavich, Madame Magda, Madame Girani.

Depends on how much "Description" is a description, but the catalogue lists (in addition to the ones you mentioned):
Madame Nygar, Madam Fayina, Madam Rosa, Nana Zsolty Taksony, Karla Zsolty, Ilisa Zsolty, Nadja the Seer, Madam Senda, Karin, Aliza, Riandra, Varith, Dulcimae, Madame Ursula, Andrianna, Marielle, Lizette, Niro, Annelise, Marda, Vincenzia, Madame Yvonna, Arabella, Donella, Vlana Waldershen, Katya/Vassa, Cyrilla, Gitana, Leyla Salazar, Marcella, Inza Kulchevich, Maruschka, Rima, Greta, Madame Ilka, Gabrielle Aderre, Lucita Aderre, Lisl, Aeda, Demitria, & Mena

And the catalogue's not complete, so that's probably a partial list. But enough for some unfounded speculation, no?

Maybe the mother of the Ultimate Dukkar can be a member of the Tribe of Hyskosa. Maybe Vincenza (since Valana was supposed to die in Death Undaunted).

By the way, in my campaign the GC had a child with Maekon the vehrteig: a Dukkar-like creature able to remove curses.

Docbeard:

A half-Vistani is unlikely to cut it as a Tatyana-duplicate, given her physical description (pale redhead). And Madame Eva was already a very old lady when she entered Ravenloft, at least if we credit the novels. As for Inza, I'd think she herself would be a better potential GC-child candidate, given her behavior and attitude problem ... not that this would entirely disqualify her for Dukkar-motherhood -- the Caller's a freakin' demon, after all -- but blatant incest would probably go farther into Mature Readers Only territory than Arthaus would've wanted, for a central meta-plot point.

whalejudge wrote:Van Richten is too old to be the son of an incubus? Why? I wasn't aware that demons got old that quickly, and as far as I know, precisely how long the Gentleman Caller has been in RL has never been fully established.

If the GC's been around that long, you'd think that he'd have generations of descendents all over the Land of Mists, and would have tried every possible combination of incubus/Vistani crossbreeding long ago. Plus, Isolde doesn't seem to have been in Ravenloft all that long, herself -- else, there'd be stories about her that predate Carnival -- and she came to the demiplane hot on the trail of her nemesis.

Besides, if Erasmus had been a tiefling, would the Radanaviches ever have kidnapped him? Whatever his alignment or upbringing, Madame Radanavich surely would've sensed there was something "unclean" about such a person, and Baron Metus had specifically requested a pure and innocent victim.

Plus, you'd think that if Van Richten had any vistani blood, it would have been mentioned in VRG to the Vistani, no?

Well, I dunno... Hitler might have been part Jewish himself, and he wasn't particularly forthcoming about it.

VR has a strong bias against the Vistani, so his own words on the matter might not be reliable.

Well, Van Richten only gets drawn into the matter on the grounds of bringing things full circle. But frankly in that category a child of Madame Eva, the Hyskosa Clan, or S would be better candidates.

Perhaps S already has a son too . . . . Or better was impregnated by the Gentleman caller during their encounter in Gaz V.

cure wrote:Well, Van Richten only gets drawn into the matter on the grounds of bringing things full circle. But frankly in that category a child of Madame Eva, the Hycsoa Clan, or of S would be better candidates.

The full circle quote was a meta-comment in regard to the Thirteenth and the Kargatane design team, actually.

The mother of the Ultimate Dukkar has been guessed on this thread, but that of the Thirteenth has not. The two Dukkars in question are distinct individuals; the Thirteenth exists in the setting (and in published material), but the Ultimate doesn't. However, the Caller's attempts have been leading up to the Ultimate, and if you start looking for points of connection, you can probably figure out who his target is. (I guessed it with only three Dukkars to work from. )

Well, I dunno... Hitler might have been part Jewish himself, and he wasn't particularly forthcoming about it.

VR has a strong bias against the Vistani, so his own words on the matter might not be reliable.

Really, dude? Really? Not even getting into Godwin's law, VRGttV's strongest narrative theme was Van Richten confronting his flaws, including his racism, and coming out a better man for it. The whole thing was about purging the rot and pus out of his wounds. If there was a time to reveal something like that, it was there. Use Arturi Randavich if you need a heroic, positive Vistani character.

So, the big metaplot thing was..."The Evil Eye, only bigger!"? That was it? The Gentleman Caller's master plan was to impregnate a lot of people, and have Rosemary's Omen Baby? Because, like,"The Gentleman Caller has a kid with a really super evil and powerful Vistani and lil'Damian he's gonna mess y'all's up!", I dunno, man, that just makes me think that, gee, it'd be cool seeing a girl throw a drink in the GC's smug, supernaturally attractive face.

DocBeard wrote:VRGttV's strongest narrative theme was Van Richten confronting his flaws, including his racism, and coming out a better man for it. The whole thing was about purging the rot and pus out of his wounds.

Precisely. If VR was part vistani and knew it, revealing it should have been part of his catharsis. If VR was part vistani and didn't know it, the vistani revealing it to him should have been part of his epiphany. Tacking it on now would just be lame.

The Gentleman Caller's master plan was to impregnate a lot of people, and have Rosemary's Omen Baby?

Well, he is an incubus, after all. That's already one step further than their usual plan of "impregnate a lot of people, give other incubi high-fives".

DocBeard wrote:
So, the big metaplot thing was..."The Evil Eye, only bigger!"? That was it? The Gentleman Caller's master plan was to impregnate a lot of people, and have Rosemary's Omen Baby? Because, like,"The Gentleman Caller has a kid with a really super evil and powerful Vistani and lil'Damian he's gonna mess y'all's up!", I dunno, man, that just makes me think that, gee, it'd be cool seeing a girl throw a drink in the GC's smug, supernaturally attractive face.

No, that's an incomplete and somewhat inaccurate version of the Gentleman Caller's plan. The metaplot was Azalin's plan, and even then, it was more a means to S's character development (and possibly one big adventure with repercussions for key parts of the setting) than a Massive Reworking of Ravenloft.

Is it just me, or might the most destructive possibility for a child of the GC have Tara Kolyana (Tatyana's current incarnation) as its mother?

Ok Im throwing odd ideas round in my brain here, but how about:

Lucita aderre is the 13th Dukkar. I just reread her entry in SoDR and although it could be interpreted many ways, her father is a point of ambiguity. That woudl be full circle would it not (especially if that was the one of the first books the Kargatane worked on in 3rd ed)?

whalejudge wrote:Is it just me, or might the most destructive possibility for a child of the GC have Tara Kolyana (Tatyana's current incarnation) as its mother?

I did wonder that as well, especially if his ultimate goal is pressing the red button on the demiplane. But does she have any Vistani ancestry?

Has anyone suggested that the Familiar from Carnival is the Gentleman Caller's child?

The Crimson Rose was pregnant when she arrived at the Carnival and the Skurra-vera prevents her and the Familiar from talking about either of their pasts.

So no one knows were he comes from or who his father is.