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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:44 pm
by Jester of the FoS
Rafael wrote:
Jester of the FoS wrote:I'd avoid "Black Knight" for the... er... humorous amputation conotation.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Then again, *The Dark Knight* is already taken... Image

What about calling him "The Black Sluggard", then, if we want to keep with Scott analogies?
WolfKook wrote:Mmmmmm... And what if Desdichado is not a man??? :twisted:
Easy, Wolfie. :P Last person who brought up that question hasn't recovered from the trauma yet...
That's why I went with "Rogue Knight".

A Lancelot knight though might be adding too much hero (a role for the PC) and doomed lovers have been explored before. The idea of the lone good knight or noble crusader struggling against all odds is both cliche and steps on the PCs toes.
And having this not-nice resistance leader creates tension and adventure. If PCs decide the ends justify the means and join with him, or they ally with him before they discover he's a bastard, or just plain creating another menace to fight.

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:36 am
by Gonzoron of the FoS
ReDeeMeR wrote:ii) about the map that gonzoron posted. canon info from the islands of terror indicates that the majority of the settlements in Nidala lie in a 10-mile radius around Touraine.
True, but do we have any canon info for the size of the cluster? I can check the IoT map tomorrow, it should have a scale.
Given the fact that Elena frequently visits most of the villages in the domain in search for evil, the centralized population makes sense.
Agreed. In fact, IIRC IoT says she visits every village every week, which seems a bit of a hectic schedule, IMHO. (Maybe the DP's gave her a bit of extra speed when traveling her domain in search of evil?) In any case, when I added villages, I pretty much just scattered them west of the mountains in places that might give them a bit of a story hook. i.e., my Iasgair is a fishing village, Sgorrlag is a mining town, Srath has a limestone quarry, etc. I didn't give much thought to the distances, and when I ran my adventure, I just guesstimated that most villages were about a day's ride apart. I imagine she might not get to Cu Clannagh every week, and maybe it's a good place for minor rebellions to fester. (Or maybe like Glenmurron, she said, "enough with this place" and burned it.) Regardless, feel free to use or ignore parts of my map as y'all see fit.

Something that might need to be addressed is a cultural hook, especially regarding naming. We've all been throwing around the King Arthur metaphor (I kept it in mind as well, though my "Merlin" was Theokos, not Morgoroth), and Belenus is a celtic god. That's why I skewed toward "British" in my names, with a focus on gaelic. Frankly, I'm not well versed enough to really have pulled it off consistently, but considering the native speaker reactions to Richemulot, Dementlieu, etc, I figured "close enough" is good enough for Ravenloft. :) The source material doesn't fully support it (Touraine? Elena? Alexi?) but does somewhat (Faith-Hold, Shadowborn, Caitlin, Avalon). So outliers like Ricochet grate a little bit, but are probably acceptable, since we don't need to shackle it to a real-world culture, but it helps the land feel consistent. IMHO, "Arthurian England, with Celtic influence" is enough of a hook to distinguish it from Tepest, Mordent, and Paridon.

As far as people's names, I tried to keep with the feel of "noun-verb" that Shadowborn and Faith-hold have, without treading on traditional halfling names, but I found it difficult, so I extended it to noun-noun (Silvertree) or noun-noun translated into gaelic or welsh (Eggleston=Eaglestone), but when all else failed, I just went with british-sounding names (Flanagan, Braeburn (whoops, that's New Zealand), Hansen (whoops, that's Danish/Norwegian).) In other words, I did a rather poor job of what I'm advocating, but I'm advocating it anyway. :lol:

ETA:Apparently adjective-noun is acceptable too, as in Lysander Greylocks
Any ideas on that false history thing?
I agree, this needs work. I didn't come up with much, other than this: they knew they were a province of the Great Kingdom once, but the Kingdom descended into chaos due to outside forces, and the Knight-Protector arose to fight the evil and usher in the New Kingdom. (years in my Nidala are measured as Nth year of the New Kingdom. I don't recall if that's canon.) The forces of chaos shrouded the land in Mist in retaliation. As the Knight Protector has purged the land of evil, the Mists have retreated to reveal more of the fallen Great Kingdom (the Forest and Avonleigh), infested by evil she is destined to fight, so as to eventually reclaim the whole Kingdom in Belenus's name. Belenus has preserved the Paladin for these long years because none have risen high enough and pure enough to take her place.

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:17 pm
by Jester of the FoS
ReDeeMeR wrote:a couple of tiny details about previous posts:

i) it is not Morogoth, but Morgoroth
and
ii) about the map that gonzoron posted. canon info from the islands of terror indicates that the majority of the settlements in Nidala lie in a 10-mile radius around Touraine. Given the fact that Elena frequently visits most of the villages in the domain in search for evil, the centralized population makes sense.

Any ideas on that false history thing?

regards,
R
Morgoroth. Gotcha.
Yeah, I've been going off memory for many of the names, with my books two floors below me.

False history?
We could spin the Aurthurian legend abit and have the previous king be an evil man (the Mordread) overthrown by his good son, who then tried to destroy his evil sword (Ebonbane).

Or perhaps play off the possible connection between the unnamed world being the same as that of Barovia, only farther away. The Terg barbarian were drawn elsewhere by a war in a neighbouring land allowing the evil king to seize power before the good son came.
And, remembering his evil reign, the people are happy when Elena continues his reign as a champion of light. The people might truly be scared of a corrupt tyrant.

As a fairly left-wing kook, I'd also be tempted to play of recent US history with Elena being this fear mongering leader who keeps power by insisting that only she's capable of defending the nation from the ambiguous external threat. Possibly extending this into the past with previous leaders who also emphasized or exaggerated foreign or domestic threats.

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:43 am
by Le Noir Faineant
Jester of the FoS wrote: Or perhaps play off the possible connection between the unnamed world being the same as that of Barovia, only farther away. The Terg barbarian were drawn elsewhere by a war in a neighbouring land allowing the evil king to seize power before the good son came.
You got my vote on this, Jester! :)

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:04 am
by Gonzoron of the FoS
removed double post

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:11 am
by Gonzoron of the FoS
The thing is we've got some real history to play with, and I wouldn't want that the be totally ignored in favor of the false. We know Nidala and Avonleigh were part of the Great Kingdom. We know Elena and Kateri served in the Circle, which was not, as far as I know, a ruling council, but more of a Jedi-knight-like holy order that kept the peace on behalf of the rulers. (Might be worth re-reading the first few chapters of Shadowborn to see if there are any details there.) We know about the Heretical Wars and the War of Evil. We know they fought The Southern Empire, led by Grand Caliph Muhdar ab Sang. We also know some details of Elena's rise to power/fall from grace from IoT, which don't include her killing off an evil father-king, or anything like that. (Unless you're talking about the King the Circle served and not Elena?)

I'm also pretty sure that Ebonbane isn't common knowledge, so he shouldn't factor into the false history much, and even if he did, we know his history too, which doesn't really reflect Excalibur, as much as we might like it to.

I'm not sure what we really get out of linking it the Barovia's world, other than the opportunity to name-drop the Tergs. I'm willing to be convinced, but I just don't see the need. In my campaign, I linked it to the world of Radaga and Daglan (changing Radaga to a fallen priestess of Belenus, and making the Caliph into the King Daglan served.) But that was for the needs of my campaign, and not any inherent connection that I saw.

Also, I afraid any attempt to inject real-world politics will a) alienate a portion of the readership unnecessarily and b) look horribly dated in a few years time. We should aim for a game accessory that's useful to the most people and that stands the test of time, IMHO. That need trumps any cute political parallels we might see. (Imagine if IoT, released in 1992, had sly references to NAFTA and Ross Perot.)

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:25 am
by Sorti
Since Elena is one of my favourite darklords, count me in for Nidala!

BTW, am I the only one seeing her as an evil parallel to Jean d'Arc? She did speak with her God, but He doesn't answer anymore...

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:50 am
by Jester of the FoS
gonzoron wrote:I'm not sure what we really get out of linking it the Barovia's world, other than the opportunity to name-drop the Tergs. I'm willing to be convinced, but I just don't see the need. In my campaign, I linked it to the world of Radaga and Daglan (changing Radaga to a fallen priestess of Belenus, and making the Caliph into the King Daglan served.) But that was for the needs of my campaign, and not any inherent connection that I saw.
Mostly to prevent confusion with the Greyhawk Great Kingdom or link the cluster to another land.

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:59 am
by Le Noir Faineant
Jester of the FoS wrote:
gonzoron wrote:I'm not sure what we really get out of linking it the Barovia's world, other than the opportunity to name-drop the Tergs. I'm willing to be convinced, but I just don't see the need. In my campaign, I linked it to the world of Radaga and Daglan (changing Radaga to a fallen priestess of Belenus, and making the Caliph into the King Daglan served.) But that was for the needs of my campaign, and not any inherent connection that I saw.
Mostly to prevent confusion with the Greyhawk Great Kingdom or link the cluster to another land.
:twisted: Hehe, indeed, then my idea about linking it to Blackmoor or Greyhawk would be as valid as this one.

With Barovia, exactly, I would like to see how you do that, especially because the setting has a Eastern-European touch. The Shadowlands, however, are more like Celtic/French Europe, from what I understand...

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:43 pm
by Rotipher of the FoS
Jester of the FoS wrote:Mostly to prevent confusion with the Greyhawk Great Kingdom or link the cluster to another land.
The first part of that could be accomplished simply by doing what Bill Connors never got around to doing: giving the Shadowborns' "Great Kingdom" a proper name. One that's not "Aerdy". :wink:

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:07 pm
by Charney
Sorti wrote:Since Elena is one of my favourite darklords, count me in for Nidala!

BTW, am I the only one seeing her as an evil parallel to Jean d'Arc? She did speak with her God, but He doesn't answer anymore...
I believe that was the original inspiration for Elena.

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:57 am
by The Giamarga
gonzoron wrote:We know about the Heretical Wars and the War of Evil. We know they fought The Southern Empire, led by Grand Caliph Muhdar ab Sang.
Muhdar ab(d) Sang - does anyone know what this names means? Sang = blood in french, right? Also ab could be abd which means "slave of" in arabic, as in abdallah or abdullah = slave of allah. So the name rings close to Muhdar Slave of Blood, a very evocative name.

I think embellishing the story of this Caliph and the war against him should be one of the things the Gaz does in the (False) History section.

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:58 am
by impworks
Just a couple of thoughts for the mix...

How about including some sort of outlaw archer theme either something loosely drawing on Robin Hood and his grim companions or the earlier Adam Bell, Clim of the Clough, and William of Cloudesley?

Is there a thieves guild, league, underground or similar organisation(s) operating in the area?