Café de Nuit

With a keen understanding that this is agothic horror setting and not a Lovecraftian horror setting, any thoughts on legends of lost cities beneath the waves known for worship of vile and denomic things and being populated by abominations that occasionally bubble back to the surface? Not a race per se, but the remenants of one? Or, in the alternative, forgotten things might be worshipped by the undersea folk or be mistaken for gods by more primitive landdwellers?

I seem to recall that the Kuo-Toa fill that niche in Ravenloft, along with the 'Shay-Lot', whatever they are. Also a were-ray from CotN:Werebeasts.

To give folks who might prefer not to write in character their chance to participate (and ensure that this won't get ignored until the last minute), there's another task that needs to be divvied up: the DM Appendix!

From responses so far, and after consulting existing VRGs, I think this book could use the following:

Essays: Every monster in a gothic setting is, at some level, a parable for humanity's broader fears and insecurities. The obvious theme to explore in sea monster adventures is "Nature is not friendly" -- a classic Ravenloft motif -- but there might be other spins to put on the concept, depending on the creatures involved.

Equipment: As doctor-evil rightly points out, there'll be mundane gadgets available in the Renaissance domains that can facilitate forays into the depths. Alchemical and magical equipment could also be listed here, as could cursed items related to these monsters (like Myxitzajal's pearl of enthrallment) and new spells for heroes and monstrous spellcasters.

Prestige classes: A must! At the very least, let's add a "Deep-hunter" option to the roster of specialty monster-hunters. Other ideas are more than welcome, if they'll expand PCs' ability to penetrate the depths and face off against such critters.

New monsters: JWM's soul-kraken stats will appear here (yay!), but it shouldn't be lonely. Let's give each Ravenloft sea at least one unique critter to spook and surprise players with, if we can!

Marine salients/feats: Writers who take the time to invent unique abilities for their critters may end up independently concocting the same tricks, if they're all worked up independently. Unless they're really exclusive to one monster-type (like a morkoth doing weird stuff with its hypnotic lair), we should compile such ideas in one place, and make the abilities available for everyone to read and select.

NPCs: Arthaus's practice of statting up major contributors and individual monsters should continue. We could give full write-ups to existing named sea-critters like Rudolf of Baytown, or make up our own villains from the depths to give "star treatment" at the end. As there'll be several different narrators, we could give short write-ups of several ... or we could give quickie sidebar-stats for such contributors in the main text, and present a full description of the "nautical researcher" character NeoTiamat thought up (as seen in framing fiction throughout the book) in the Appendix.


So, if you'd like to contribute, but are more into "crunch" than "fluff", look over these options and see if there's anything that appeals to you!

NeoTiamat wrote:I seem to recall that the Kuo-Toa fill that niche in Ravenloft, along with the 'Shay-Lot', whatever they are. Also a were-ray from CotN:Werebeasts.

The QtR9 "Deep-kin" article by Uri "Shadowking" Barak featured the kuo-toa in such a role, although those weren't ever mentioned in the Arthaus products. The sunken city mentioned in CotN:Werebeasts lies a bit outside the scope of a monster-book, I'm afraid.

As for the Shay-Lot (whatever they are) ... lemme think about it, and I'll get back to you.

I have to leave for a long bus-ride very quickly, so I'll keep this short.

Regarding essays, I think a very good case can be made for 'The Loneliness of the Sea'. At sea, people are stuck on a small, cramped location for days or weeks, or even months or years on end, with no escape and a hostile environment that can kill you at any moment. Nautical adventures exemplify the 'Isolation' aspect of Gothic Horror more then any other, I think.

Another good idea! That earns you a beer to enjoy on your bus ride, NeoT! (Unless you're the one driving the bus, of course. )


Isolation and loneliness, cast adrift or castaway ... hey, DeepShadow, you're our psychology-wiz. Care to tackle that topic?

Expanding on the "nature against us" theme, one aspect of this (which ties in to NeoTiamat's "isolation" theme), one point of sea adventures is that we, human beings, are creatures of the land. When we go to sea, we depend upon mechanical contrivances ("ships") to get us there, as we penetrate into an environment in which we do not naturally belong. This is redoubled when the adventure is an underwater one, where the environment itself is hostile to our existence. Essentially, any action taken in the course of a seafaring /underwater adventure is one where humanity has, by dint of its own knowledge, altered the world in which we live to our own apparent advantage. Which, as with any scientifically-based storyline, raises the question of should humanity venture into this area.

You get this a lot, especially, in sunken-ship stories, where the question is raised on a moral level if humans should be crawling over what is, in essence, a graveyard for other humans, whether for curiosity's sake, to solve the mystery of how the sinking occurred, or for loot's sake. The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, for example, got some of this debate raised by the families of the deceased...and any time you mix the words "graveyard" and "moral quandry" there's a Ravenloft story in there somewhere.

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:Isolation and loneliness, cast adrift or castaway ... hey, DeepShadow, you're our psychology-wiz. Care to tackle that topic?

Sure!

Possible inspiration for those adrift http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raft_of_the_Medusa

On a more contemporary "isolation" note, TNT is showing Castaway right now.

Raft of the Medusa.... *shudders* I had to study that thing for a while. One could do worse then look at it to get into the mood.

Okay, other random points I would like to make.

Salients == The problem with putting all salients in one place is that they tend to be pretty directly related to what the specific creature is, outgrowths of its biology or society or what not. I am going to be working on salients for sea-wolves. Most of them are going to be derivatory of what actual seals can do, along with some lycanthropic fun stuff or pack hunting techniques (This isn't even at the planning stage).

However, predatory pack mammals who don't even breathe water don't have a terribly lot in common with krakens, who in turn are not very similar to undead sharks, who in turn have little to do with Sea Spawn Masters, and so on. The only really unifying thing between all these monsters is that they spend most of their time in the water. Not sure if you can place anything but the most vague salients on it.

My two cents.

On a more selfish note,

NPCs = You can count on me for a single researcher NPC, and an as-yet undetermined number of Sea-Wolf NPCs. Currently tossing around the idea of a sea stalker triumvirate, but there are still kinks to work out.

Monsters = I also have a strong desire to re-work the Sea Wolf into something manageable, and to reconcile the numerous differences between the Stormwrack Sea Wolf and the Gaz II Sea Stalker. Whether this would be a good idea or not, I don't know...

NeoTiamat wrote: The problem with putting all salients in one place is that they tend to be pretty directly related to what the specific creature is, outgrowths of its biology or society or what not....

... The only really unifying thing between all these monsters is that they spend most of their time in the water. Not sure if you can place anything but the most vague salients on it.

True, salient abilities/feats that are strongly associated with one species should be listed in that species' chapter. But a number of those will have to do with underwater mobility, senses, or other generic traits of all kinds of sea monsters, and others will cross species for other reasons (e.g. venomous spines could be added to anything with scales; sea serpents and seawolves could both thrash prey against the water's surface to kill it, leopard seal-style). Like the powers in VRGttWD, plenty of abilities will cross over, even if they're most common in a particular type.

We'll have to wait and see what kinds of ideas people come up with, but if folks send them to me as we go, I can post the "generic" ones for others to consider for their chapters. Anything that does prove compatible with multiple creatures can go in the DM Appendix, where everyone can draw upon them equally.

You can count on me for a single researcher NPC, and an as-yet undetermined number of Sea-Wolf NPCs. Currently tossing around the idea of a sea stalker triumvirate, but there are still kinks to work out.

One sea-wolf NPC will probably be enough for the Appendix; if there's a triumvirate, they should go in a sidebar. (No need to make ScS's head explode while formatting NPCs again! ) The one you write up doesn't have to be the champion of its species or anything, BTW: a villain who's likely to get involved with PC heroes (spying on them, harassing them, etc) is best, even if it's not the strongest of the lot.

Hmmm... do seawolves worship the Wolf God? If so, do they depict Him as a seawolf, or a wolf? Do religious werewolves and seawolves fight about the issue, when they meet?

I also have a strong desire to re-work the Sea Wolf into something manageable, and to reconcile the numerous differences between the Stormwrack Sea Wolf and the Gaz II Sea Stalker. Whether this would be a good idea or not, I don't know...

Nothing new about that; even in 2E, there were "lesser seawolves" and "greater seawolves". Given how many werewolf-variants there are, it's not that surprising that their aquatic cousins would be diverse too.

Whichever stats you go with, past products make it clear that Ravenloft's seawolves are definitely lycanthropes, not magical beasts, and that they definitely have a hybrid form. (Technically, I suppose we could lump them and other sea-lycanthropes in the same chapter, but seawolves are the most socially-inclined and visible type, so giving them a whole chapter of their own seems appropriate.)

Regarding Salients: I bow to your superior wisdom and eloquence.

Regarding NPCs: While tempting, I agree. I have a tendency to think in big, world-spanning plots. But no, these guys are going to be more 'long random encounter' type thing.

I'm going to try and hold myself to a ceiling of CR 6 for the lot of them. Anyway, they're pack hunters.

Regarding Religion: Hmmm...... I'll have to think about that. Either way, it won't be a major point, I think we've had enough dubious religion in the last book.

Regarding Seawolf Monster: Okay, I'm just making my own version... WotC makes them magical beasts, Gaz II removes their hybrid form (*sigh*).

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I know Sea Stalkers appear in Gaz II, where else? (The Kargatane Catalogue has not been forthcoming on the subject).

AFAIK, Gaz II invented them. I could be wrong, though.



Oh, and congrats on the new avatar, Mikhail ... or are you Adramelech now? (*gulp...*)

Now that would be telling, wouldn't it?

Eh, I'm still poking around with avatars, we'll see if the old geezer stays.

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Alright, I'll dig around a bit more on sea wolves.

Oh, also, and this is a more general announcement so the rest of you gents can read as well:

I'm going to be digging up various maritime myths and sailor's superstitions, and if there is a desire, I can post interesting/notable/useful ones up here, or I can try and track down a specific superstition for use in different chapters.