Café de Nuit

Poisons! A thing of delight to see some reasonable poison mechanics at last. I never liked the 2nd edition save or die poisons or the 3rd edition poisons that would cripple but not kill...

Benefit: You don’t grant enemies combat advantage in surprise rounds.

A typo? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071128

While these effects seem nice and good... they're not so impresive. So, a 13th level paladin deals double damage and heals a friend for 15 hit points. No biggie for a 13th level guy.

OK, denial of line of view. Cool! Really! The wizard gets to live! That improves the chances of success in a combat by far IMO.
The problem is that the ancient blue dragon (as in the example), won't be pleased that he will be the target of yet another 8th-9th level spell because you didn't let him to smack down the wizard. And you still are a suitable target for that lighting breath weapon.

Also ... double the base weapon damage? That's not so impresive. Unless base weapon damage includes strength bonuses, boosts from feats and spells etc. However I guess it doesn't.
I.e a sword +5 deals 2d8+10 + wis modifier + all other bonuses instead of 1d8+5 all other bonuses.
OK at 1st level an extra 1d8+ cha mod is good. At 27th level... well not so impressive.

Bottom line: Paladins seem weaker forms of the devoted Crusader class from the book of nine swords.

Example: Compare the double weapon damage+cha mod +an ally heals 12-13 hp with this power of a 11th level Crusader:
War leader's charge: You charge. No attacks of opportunity while charging, +35 damage if you hit.

Or this of a 9th level Crusader:
Flanking maneuver: If you strike a foe you flank, all your allies flanking your target that see you get a free attack on that target... poor giants.

Well, that's very hard to say since we don't know how powerful weapon damage is.
In SW Saga you add 1/2 your level to your damage. That's inherent so it might very well be considered base weapon damage. Double damage AND charisma added make for some decent pain.

And it does assume hp go up at the same rate in the new D&D as in the old. It's very likey you start out with more hp which goes up more slowly for a less dramatic power/hp creep. And keep in mind 15 is the new 10, 1/2 up the game. Not that powerful anymore so 10-15 healing might be impressive.

Yeap, I remember the 20th equals 30th. I guess that the new 13th is about the old 10th in power. However I guess the hp just stack. You get a good bonus on hp in the beginning and you keep them.

1/2 level in weapon damage?! I don't think we will see that in 4th edition. Perhaps 1/2 your base attack bonus, yes, but 1/2 your level gives a wizard the same level bonus as the fighter.
Anyway, for a paladin of 13th level an extra 1d8+6+ 2-3 (cha) +1-2 (weapon) =1d8 + 9-10 to damage is indeed some hefty damage.

Fighters have more strength, better weapons and better combat abilities. They'll always be doing more damage.
And why shouldn't a lvl 19 wizard do more with a straight staff blow than a lvl1 wizard?

Plus it looks like they're going with a single BAB table anyway.

As for hp, they've said they wanted to replicate the feel of playing lvls 4-12, when the arbitrary numbers worked out the best. Now stretching 8 levels over 30 means a couple things. The biggest for hp would be that you start out with more hp but gain fewer as you level for a more gradual creep in the damage you can take. And since you want each level bump to be less dramatic that would go hand-in-hand with fewer hitpoints.

alhoon wrote:Also ... double the base weapon damage? That's not so impresive. Unless base weapon damage includes strength bonuses, boosts from feats and spells etc. However I guess it doesn't.

It could be that they're saving the benefits of multiplied strength bonuses for the fighter's class abilities, thus making fighters the top damage-dealing Defender class and paladins, the best ally-buffing Defenders. It makes sense that paladins would be the less offense-oriented of the two, as traditional paladins' archetype is that of a protector of innocents, and even 4E's Evil paladins will likely be groomed for a "guard the evil priest" role.

Jester of the FoS wrote: Plus it looks like they're going with a single BAB table anyway.

As for hp, they've said they wanted to replicate the feel of playing lvls 4-12, when the arbitrary numbers worked out the best.

Where we got the first one from? single BAB?

As for hp, perhaps you're right, but perhaps not. The feel of 4-12 level doesn't mean that you have to gain hp at a slower pace. Also they stated out and clear that at 30th level you'll be about as powerful as in the 20th level of 3rd edition, i.e taking on the wyrm dragons and demon lords.
If the creatures you face as levels progress increase in hit points according to your power then I don't think the hp increase will be a problem.
On the other hand, we could always return to a system like "above X level, you gain +2 hp/lvl"

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=957107

Been hinted at other threads based on leaked info from Wizards Presents: Races and Classes. That's where the dragonborn info has come from as well. All over ENworld.

True, a lot of things are being reported on ENworld these days. I haven't been adding such links to the 4e FACT thread, partly because it's hard to distinguish rumors and speculation from facts if it's not WotC reporting the information, and partly because I honestly haven't had time to keep up with ENworld lately. (End-of-semester panic, and all... )

I seem to have inadvertantly taken over the FACT thread and its updates, but that doesn't mean Jester or the other mods can't post ENworld links there, if they come across something juicy! For that matter, if anybody else spots a tasty bit of information online, you can pm me about it, and I'll check it out for possible inclusion on the thread.

And sadly that is how WotC pictures gnomes...

So, Lolth is now a 'new moon' goddess but her symbol is the spider?

Riiiiight....

alhoon wrote:

Jester of the FoS wrote: Plus it looks like they're going with a single BAB table anyway.

As for hp, they've said they wanted to replicate the feel of playing lvls 4-12, when the arbitrary numbers worked out the best.

Where we got the first one from? single BAB?

As for hp, perhaps you're right, but perhaps not. The feel of 4-12 level doesn't mean that you have to gain hp at a slower pace. Also they stated out and clear that at 30th level you'll be about as powerful as in the 20th level of 3rd edition, i.e taking on the wyrm dragons and demon lords.
If the creatures you face as levels progress increase in hit points according to your power then I don't think the hp increase will be a problem.
On the other hand, we could always return to a system like "above X level, you gain +2 hp/lvl"

So according the the tentative information from Races and Classes we're not just getting one BAB table but one set of saving throws and other similar bonuses with some classes offering small extras.

Well the base saves will be mostly equal, that's not bad IMO. I'm neither happy nor disappointed by this.

However it seems interesting that elves have a speed of 35'... that means that we will probably see an increase of speed for the races or greater variety. For examples the dwarves may have speed 25' while halflings 20' or something like that. This seems good to me because it allows greater mobility... unless you wear armor which I guess will give more penalties.

Pamela wrote:So, Lolth is now a 'new moon' goddess but her symbol is the spider?

Riiiiight....

From what I got, she started ages ago as a new moon goddess and after the rebelion and corrupting elves she went to the abyss and turned to the "demon spider queen"