Café de Nuit

and that's just a smattering a changes off the top of my head. Not a completele list....

As a staunch proponent of outworlder games (i.e. not what you mean by "weekend in hell" but not native characters either), I found that most of the time the "killer Ravenloft GM" was really one who didn't understand the theme.

For example, in our games, we played with our favorite characters from any setting, having them brought them into Ravenloft for a number of reasons. For some, there was the perception that Ravenloft was "harder." They wanted a greater challenge in their hero-ing. Not my thing, but one of our DMs made that work for them.

For me, as a player and later as a DM, I was interested in the idea that "hero-ing" wasn't exactly a squeaky clean business, and sometimes, when doing the right thing, (or as close as you can get), you get tainted in the process. I.e. You might save the world, but you have damned yourself. Then you explore whether or not it was worth it, the nature of heroism, etc.

The Killer DM usually gets the "it's harder" idea, and the "you get tainted" idea, but they don't get that these things have to be driven by the player. I.e. Killer DM reads Ravenloft, says, "cool!" and inflicts it on the players. Instead, we, as players, were relatively familiar with some of the ideas/secrets of the setting, and knew it was something we were interested in.

I don't know. I felt like a had a good point there, and got on a roll and now I'm not sure if I've made it. I suppose the difference is that, for us, as "outworld gamers," we felt like Ravenloft, as a setting was a vehicle for taking our characters beyond clear cut ideas of good and evil, or even the ideas we had at the time for who they were as characters.

If you're not looking to do that, I'm not sure that RL is going to work as a great setting for you. And of course, that was our experience. I'm a firm believer that there are no absolutes.

Slerm

Personally, as a 90% DM / 10% Player, my problem wasn't finding players that wanted to play Ravenloft, it was finding players that could actually play Ravenloft

This area (IMHO) is pretty barren of players that actually ROLEplay and not ROLLplay RPGs...most players I work with now get bored if there isn't combat every 30 minutes of "real time" playing and that their characters are not twice as rich as they were at the beginning of the session

In short, except for a select few players, I wouldn't DM a Ravenloft game with them as the players (1) couldn't actually roleplay themselves out of a paper bag, (2) didn't "get" the concept of what a RL adventure curtailed and at the very best it would end up like a VanHeilsing (sp?) movie (3) hated the suspence of the game and usually ended up slaughtering innocents in their paronia and (4) they got bored of the game very quickly if they didn't defeat a darklord every 3 sessions or so...

Eric the Light Bringer wrote:Personally, as a 90% DM / 10% Player, my problem wasn't finding players that wanted to play Ravenloft, it was finding players that could actually play Ravenloft

This area (IMHO) is pretty barren of players that actually ROLEplay and not ROLLplay RPGs...most players I work with now get bored if there isn't combat every 30 minutes of "real time" playing and that their characters are not twice as rich as they were at the beginning of the session

In short, except for a select few players, I wouldn't DM a Ravenloft game with them as the players (1) couldn't actually roleplay themselves out of a paper bag, (2) didn't "get" the concept of what a RL adventure curtailed and at the very best it would end up like a VanHeilsing (sp?) movie (3) hated the suspence of the game and usually ended up slaughtering innocents in their paronia and (4) they got bored of the game very quickly if they didn't defeat a darklord every 3 sessions or so...

The good part about Ravenloft is that magic does not affect the economy in minor or major ways, due to superstitions, so you don't get players wondering "If they have spellcasters all over the place, then why are they still using medieval technology?" In many ways, Ravenloft is the most realistic setting. Well, except for the creatures of the night, Darklords, and haunted realms.

Players always need to feel their character can influence the world, which is normal since those are supposed to be heros right ?

Then why not let them change Ravenloft ? IF they are powerful enough to kill/relieve one darklord after another then so be it. You can then make one domain after another diseapear... while the characters always remain trapped in the mist. Eventually they will understand that if they kill every darklord, they will end up with no remaining land under their feet ... Maybe you can drive them to believe they actually need those darklord after all. Maybe they can get hints or doubt about what actually happen to the poor souls who lived in those destroyed domains ...

Those who read my posts a few months ago know thqat I was starting a RL game from an area of Forgotten Realms which is now trapped as an island in the sea of sorrow. Well I just introduced my first RL native character (a new player)... IT's taking MONTHS just to build up the necessary tension and the perfect setting where my players will actually crave for an exploration of the sea of sorrow and the core... The time will come soon but teh key here is not to rush thing.

I don't believe in simply dumping my players into a surprise " you're now trapped into this Ravenloft module" adventure. Horror needs careful build up. Anticipation of horror is very important to properly set the mood. I believe in slowly setting my large web of terror upon such a long time frame my players won't even see it comming. In the mean time, I simply entertain them with various events that will provide me later with so many hooks to suspend their mind well above the realm of sanity. Yes it requires patience. Lots of it.


Here's another trick to help build a great game. Explain to your players that you're not there to tell them a story. You are all there, players and DM included to create an amazing story together. It is difficult even for a good player to be great with a bad DM but it is also difficult for a great DM to be good with a bunch of bad players. an RPG ican be a collective work of art.

Another way to look at it : A good DM who takes twice as much time preparing his game sessions, create interesting plots and NPCs, is playing voices and preparing appropriate sound track and ambiance lighting but is faced with boring passive *roll* players is like a guy trying to have fun making love to a ... dead body.

Don't be shy to put back some responsability on the shoulders of your players.

Slerm wrote:For me, as a player and later as a DM, I was interested in the idea that "hero-ing" wasn't exactly a squeaky clean business, and sometimes, when doing the right thing, (or as close as you can get), you get tainted in the process. I.e. You might save the world, but you have damned yourself. Then you explore whether or not it was worth it, the nature of heroism, etc.

The Killer DM usually gets the "it's harder" idea, and the "you get tainted" idea, but they don't get that these things have to be driven by the player.

I don't know. I felt like a had a good point there, and got on a roll and now I'm not sure if I've made it.
Slerm

Absolutely. I hadn't seen your post before posting but's that's what I was talking about.

The main reason why I now play/run RL in the Storytelling System is because in it there actually are more roleplaying ideas for both the player and the storyteller. IMHO, I somehow get the idea that the d20 system is roll oriented (hence the frequency and variety of dice used), and that the mathematics and the statistics of such a system seem to invade too much on what Ravenloft as a roleplaying game should be.

Plus, there's the opportunity for mature themes in Ravenloft, something which IMO pulls a lot of people away from a gaming system that encourages people of younger ages to play. Sex and violence are an undeniable part of the Gothic horror genre--fields which the Storytelling System has no problem tackling (and advising; there are warnings in the inner flaps, after all).

In the Storytelling System there are only a few dice (sometimes just one d10 is enough for an entire chapter); it ultimately falls unto the player how he must explain and roleplay his "Haven Security" merit for example, and how his 3 dots in the "Larceny" skill could be put into good use. And since experience in the Storyteller system depends less on Challenge Ratings and more on actual in-game deeds (such as how much a character learned something and how a character solved a problem), there are more chances for both the Storyteller and the player(s) to grow in-character.

I know I say too much when I say that Ravenloft in its current incarnation fits right in with the new World of Darkness rules. Characters in the nWoD (removing the supernaturals such as Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, Prometheans and Changelings) are not heroes; they're normal humans thrown into horrific situations. They're not out to save the world, but they get thrown into the supernatural, anyway, and ultimately it's all up to them if they wanna get out of it or not.

On the rare occasions I use d20 for Ravenloft I put in a few changes to the setting:

1 - Ravenloft is devoid of any standard classes or races whatsoever. There are no elves, dwarves, paladins, no wizards, clerics, etc. The only race is human (not that there are no elves, it's just that they can't be players), and the classes I allow to be played are the NPC classes (aristocrat, expert, warrior, adept, prophet and commoner; clerics in the realm for example are merely adepts or even experts with a penchant for the divine), because the majority of people from these classes know almost nothing of what Ravenloft's true nature is.

2 - Failed powers checks won't eventually lead to darklordship. IMC darklords were specifically chosen by the DP's as representations of sin, not as prisoners of their own evil deeds. A failed powers check doesn't bring physical changes, but it actually brings Madness (in increasing levels of such). When a player fails a sixth powers check she becomes depraved and almost bestial in nature, unfit for playing (the equivalent of level 0 or level 1 Morality in the Storytelling System).

3 - All alignments are Neutral, but I transposed the Virtue/Vice system of the nWoD as an indicator of behavior. Acting on Virtue or Vice brings benefits at DM's discretion (so as not to be abused).

4 - I have done away with Encounter Levels and Challenge Ratings entirely. DM's discretion about the XP given (responsible rewarding applies, of course).

The way experience is given by the DM have a major impact on which road the game is taking. Personally my players know about my "cinematographic" approach. I usually give only 1/2 the experience award for killing monsters and finding treasure but I do give ample xp bonus for doing things that would be cool if seen on the big screen. Fighters don't get bonus xp per hit die of monster killed but they get bonus for describing their fighting move (this bonus can double the award for a given monster if the moves where really cool). I also give bonus for players who help other players get into the proper mood. I give experience everytime an important milestone in the campaign have been reached, which could happen more than once per module and I do take notes of why the bonus where given so I can tell the players where the xp come from. Actually I won't list all the various xp awarding situations but the point is, experience award is a great tool for the DM to lead the game in the right direction. Exactly which system you use is not that important, as long as there's an award for good roleplaying.


ps.: we play 2nd edition full of home-made but clearly written rules and modifications.

I really like this idea of awarding XP to players describing their moves. This includes spellcasters. I really hate when a PC says: I throw a fireball, DC 16, damage 30. It's so flavourless. Consider it stolen!

That being said, I just want to say that I don't think a game system encourages Roleplay while another encourages Rollplay. I'Ve known lots of players using WoD system to play ubermunchkin characters and I've created characters in d20 made for roleplay. It's not the system as much as the playing style on the DM and player's part. End of rant.

That being said, I do agree d20 (especially challenge ratings) is too mathematical. I award XP mostly on how much fun we had.

Agreed.

I play WoD with the same team we play D20. They are the same people and they play the same way in both games. They are good players BTW, I don't have any complains on that.

IMO, although we could continue on blaming "rollplayers" and sadistic DM's for turning people away, I would be the first to admit that there's something inherently "clashing" between Ravenloft and the d20 system.

The d20/D&D system for me relies on too much "fixed" data; precise situations for precise rolls. Unless you have a feat or magic item that describes such, it would be hard to explain why you as a 1st-level character would add a +10 bonus to your Hide rolls, for example. Even a wish spell rarely cuts into the description--based on what rules Ravenloft has for such magic.

I've heard a lot of people on these boards saying that "Ravenloft is not a game for heroes." This is I think the exact mode of thinking that likely turns players away from gaming in this world. The original concept of the D&D game was that the players play people who were heroes, the good guys who use extraordinary means to save the world.

I do have an alternative: that's why I only use human NPC characters for my RL d20 games. It's these classes that have very little info to go on to understand the world. They're not heroes, they don't wish to be heroes, and even if they do wish to save the world they have very limited resources. I guess this is very Ravenloft-ish, for those who think that Ravenloft isn't for the heroes.

Dion of the Fraternity wrote:They're not heroes, they don't wish to be heroes, and even if they do wish to save the world they have very limited resources.

Which, in itself, makes them more heroic in terms of courage than any epic-level dragon-kicking munchkin-monstrosity you could name.

Ravenloft isn't for superheroes. It's for protagonists who come closer to the real thing, which is a far more ambitious topic for a game-setting to tackle, IMO.

However:

Most people prefer to play mighty heroes that save the land in their shiny armor upon their silver dragon mount, while their mage friend on the pegasus next to them throws fiery death and their cleric buddy calls the judgement of heaven to smite their enemies.

I agree that the muddy handed peasant with the pitchfork that strives to defeat the CR 4 threat to his village, to his family, to his friends, has something more brave than those "shinies" above.
Thankfully he doesn't have to be blond, tall, with a winning smile after all. He may have failings. Before facing the werewolf he probably wets his pants. I think it is fun to play this guy too.
Most people I know only do it for a break however. They don't like the muddy peasant for more than 3-4 sessions.

Personally, I like playing both themes.