Café de Nuit

tomokaicho wrote:

Joël of the FoS wrote:Interesting thread. 55 years old white male here, who think of himself as progressist and very open minded.

This is basically the problem. The tabletop gaming demographic does not reflect racial (or gender or sexual orientation) demographics broadly. It skews heavily towards White males, and in the current atmosphere, any White male dominated (meaning popular with) area is deemed to be tantamount to a manifestation of white supremacy. If you can redefine the game up until this point as white supremacy, then guess what all the players have been all this time - you guessed it - white supremacists.

Its tedious.

(My friend, I won't reply to that ugly "white supremacist" etiquette you just gave most of us, and how shaming someone for being born in this priviledged race is also racist IMHO. It isn't helping the cause at all IMHO)

I'll just ask : then why not just ask Wizards for more diversity in D&D, to reflect all players? (like they added a dark skinned woman paladin, and lesbians iconic PCs in 3e)

I'm for inclusion, but I think this purity-test rewrite of a fantasy system is somewhat silly, because it opens the door to other silliness in the future. Where will it stop?

Why not impose matriarchy in D&D since a patriarcal system is condescending to women?

Why have sexed caracters anyway?

Perhaps Oriental Adventures is silly to you, but for me it's a just a fantasy glimpse to the rich asian mythology. Do I believe that OR's clichés are real life? Of course not!

Also, why not make humans of all possible colors?

Because while it is a fantasy world, it needs to be grounded somewhere in our world, so we can relate to it, and make it alive in our imagination. That drows are black do not change a thing to what I think of black skinned people in our world, I find silly just the idea that it could. That orcs are savages do not make me think of native americans, again I find this idea quite strange.

---

That said, if really orcs and drows offend concerned people (and not the white Internet would be hero activists, whom I despise), then by all means change it.

I'm not stubborn, I understand my POV can be seen negatively, even if it sincerely doesn't mean to be.

Peace,

Joël

tomokaicho wrote:The tabletop gaming demographic does not reflect racial (or gender or sexual orientation) demographics broadly. It skews heavily towards White males

That's exactly the issue. Why doesn't it? You can bet that Wizards and other gaming companies have looked into it from pure profit motive if not genuine concern. (I will generously and without sarcasm say it's probably both. They are a business, but the business is made of people). They'd love to sell to more people, even if they are already selling to the "majority" demographic. I've seen them actively work toward this in their other big game, Magic, too. It's an issue in the board game community as well. Go to Gencon or another big gathering of gamers and look at the sea of white faces. It's not like the act of gaming itself is inherently gendered or racial. Is there something in the gaming culture that's off-putting to women and non-whites? I don't think it's a big stretch that there is. It used to be the only women you'd see illustrated on the posters and cover art in your average game store were in chainmail bikinis or tied up. That sort of thing does have an effect. We've heard the anecdotes as people share their stories online (and in person). Anecdotes aren't evidence, but the numbers are. It's not an imagined problem, and we should work to do better. I've seen things improve in my gaming lifetime on the gender front, though there's still a long way to go. It's certainly worth looking on the racial front as well to see what can be done.

I'll still hold out hope that it is somehow Ravenloft related, but when I read this specifically I went down the hallway and informed my GF before conceding that this sort of tease would probably end up being on the cruel side of things as it wasn't a clear indication that there would be more Ravenloft related things. (Christopher Perkins had tweeted out that there may be something for Fans of Ravenloft in the future) but again that's not a specific promise that it is Ravenloft related. It could just be tangentially tied to Horror.

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:[It's certainly worth looking on the racial front as well to see what can be done.

You could easily fix the problem by reducing the amount of White males playing D&D until it matches demographics. Fortunately, that is exactly what Hasbro/WotC has ensured will happen. The same thing is happening in National Parks, where overrepresentation of White nature enthusiasts is breeding white supremacy.

tomokaicho wrote:You could easily fix the problem by reducing the amount of White males playing D&D until it matches demographics. Fortunately, that is exactly what Hasbro/WotC has ensured will happen.

Had to read it twice.

I'm totally for inclusion, by all effective means possible. I'm for positive discrimination at work. I'm for a rethinking of the way police interacts with colored people.

Now, let Wiz change orcs and drows, and see in ten years what new clientele will bring. My guess : not much.

Your link: don't you think visits to National Parks is surely much more an issue of revenues then race (cost of getting there, stay, food). You know you probably have a very small % of poor white peoples going to National Parks too ... Revenues is surely much more the important thing to consider.

Or they have other type of cultural interest? Why is it that all jazz shows I go to are mostly attended by white people? The black people on stage, the white watching. And that, from the high price shows to the free outdoor shows? Same thing with theater plays? Even when the playwriter is black? A question of racism, or revenues, or interest?

I'm from Montreal, a quiet 3 millions people metro area. About 80% white. Bad racist things happens here too, but is uncommon and condemned. People are free to go where they please.

There is revenue inequality, as all people do not have the same chances. That needs to change.

And back to your article, something that doesn't make sense : most National Parks are in remote areas, far from cities where non white people mostly lives. Is it then a surprise that 80% of people working there are white?

Romani consultant for Vistani?

Drow and orcs "painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated"?

Haha wtf?

Bandwagon Morality PR.

Instead of separating fantasy from real world jive, Wizards decides to use their collective imagination and connect the (non-existant) dots and bring it in. Brilliant! Haha 80's never happened in T minus 10 seconds...

Seriously. People should stop and think. Dungeons and Dragons is a game based exclusively on the imaginations of its players. We decide what lines to draw, if any, as we are their full time editors. It's not a game without us, and it's not fantasy if it's all straight cuts from the cloth that is reality.

From a publisher point of view, and more specifically from a visual point of view; Gender, sexual orientation, racial bias...has any if it ever actually, physically or mentally, kept anybody from playing the game? Damn straight it didn't. So to sit in their ragged old office chair and to point the finger at phantoms of their mind really just shows how small-minded these people really are. Elmore/Easley (the original "key" visual artists for D&D in the 80's) had lots of dudes with handlebar mustaches. Then the art director, and or the artists themselves had to have had a hatred for men who were clean-shaven! Evil bastards. I'm not playing this game!

Foolish, yeah?

Let the game be your game, keep it fantasy, and stop with the witch hunt. Haven't we learned anything from history?

Offend yourself if you really want to, but know that YOU are the problem, not the average gamer that sits down to tell a tale and chuck a few dice for random's sake.

Gay, staight, black, white, blue, American, Martian, I don't don't give a shit about any of that. You either got a mind for fantasy gaming or you don't. And if I came to somebody's table and heard anybody get on with real world shit connections then I'd laugh. If you were serious then I'd tell you that you are f'd in the head and then walk out on you.

Foolish bastards.

Wizards is trying too hard right now to be seen as the champions of...whatever. Good to include but bad to blur reality with fantasy.

Drow as an evil society is fine. But to think that all drow are evil, except for Drizzt...do they really think I can't smooth that mistake out? And skin colour, if they were made albino then wouldn't that be a slight against real world albinos? Gonna run out of colours at this rate, and not educate people as to the actual mythic source of their appearance. Heaven forbid Wizards actually promote real world myths and legends in their game! I mean they took them and are making money off of "their" take on them...

Orcs. I don't even know what the hell the problem with them is. Native peoples? That's a stretch. And then some. It's hillarious actually, how far that link is. If it's even that.

Vistani-Romani. Yeah, Ravenloft made me think that people out in Eastern Europe all can curse me with the stink eye, hang out with vampires, have cure-alls for getting through misty mounrains, and live in brightly-painted wagons. Non compos mentis!


Game on, folks. And if the game ain't fun then maybe go volunteer for one of the many, many neglected segments of humanity and help them fight the fight. What's that? You're too busy? Thought so.

Seriously. Have fun with your fantasy. Ravenloft needs you all to keep its flesh from decaying (noticeably so anyway).

tomokaicho wrote:If you can redefine the game up until this point as white supremacy, then guess what all the players have been all this time - you guessed it - white supremacists.

I told y'all. Now this.



If you thought the recent Star Wars movies were examples of great filmmaking, you will probably love this step by Hasbro/WotC. The disclaimer is merely the step before certain titles are pulled completely, just like we have seen elsewhere. Like the Star Wars franchise, D&D is under the control of people that hate the game and hate the fans.

御負け

This thread has now gone off the rails.

"If people can still purchase them then they can still use the products in bad faith".

This statement just shows the futility of the situation. No matter what Wizards decides to do, no matter how noble their intentions, they cannot stop people/gamers from making crazy inferences (though they can stop making them themselves). It's the nature of their product. The game is defined by their players. They, like everybody else in society, cannot force or even curb ignorant and hateful biases from people. You can make laws, apply varying levels of social pressures, but none of it can shock somebody into being good and decent.

Ignorant, hateful players is what kept potential players from playing, not the game itself.

Disclaimers are great in making public the company's current moral and ethical beliefs, but ultimately they are as useless as throwing a bucket of water at a house fire. Good show of effort at best.

But to ban older material? That's throwing gas at the fire. Admitting, to unfounded accusations, that the old material (and past employees) was rampant with every socially-detestable bias that the current generation has issue with is counter-productive and a social and legal minefield. Unless there's some really "insightful" interdepartmental memos from that era floating about and about to be leaked. Heh.

I'll repeat myself (and add some thoughts because my first reply ending up being a bit more aggressive than intended; I just can't stand people that scream witch without proof) before walking away because my time on stage is past done. It's time for others to get up and have their say, if they so choose.

Mixing real world issues into a fantasy game is a bad idea. If the players want to do it, then that's great. It can be cathartic for some. But for the company to do so...well, that's a different can of worms if not handled properly. The bottom end of their target age range are just kids, so that needs to be factored in (as a 9 year old starter, I just wanted to be like the Hero in the Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology books my older brother had, and to fight the monsters as I imagined them to be. I never played to be socially-responsible in the real world, or to be educated with real-world adult issues by a game company). Good on Wizards team for putting their hearts out there (I don't know any of them so I probably should default them that). But if they want to ultimately be inclusive of certain woefully neglected players then maybe they should stay focused on bringing their (non-preachy) fantasy game to groups of those players. Charity sessions, visible events, etc. Or like Meals on Wheels but bringing game to those who could use a break from the heartbreak that is their reality (I'm thinking of kids here now). Anything less can be seen (and will be by haters) as token support. As I have ignorantly accused them of. I don't follow them as an organisation, only bits and blurbs, so I may have been unjust with that statement. Does that put me shoulder to shoulder with those witchfinders I said I hated? Maybe. Truth ain't always yer friend..

And with that, I'm done. Thanks for putting up with my two cents.

Edited in an attempt at clarity, then edited again to include the edit. Haha

No one's coming to take away your old materials. One random person on twitter calling for them to stop selling them isn't going to override their decision to simply add disclaimers, which hurts no one. The slippery slope argument rarely holds weight. Re-evaluating old material in a modern light isn't hatred of the game or its fans. I have disagreed with what Wizards have done on many occasions, but never seen any reason to believe they are trying to do anything other than make the best products they can. Yes, they care about sales, but guess what, sales mean people like the product. No decision they make takes place in a vacuum, and there's no simple solution that will make it all go away and please everyone, but ultimately the actual actions they've taken or announced make very little negative impact on the game that I can see. Whether you see it as posturing or well-meaning contextualization is up to you. I choose to see it in a positive light. Ezra knows we could use something positive these days.

We've obviously got diverse views on the topic here, and I count that as a good thing. I don't know if anyone's changing their minds, but as long as we can debate with respect, I see no need to lock the thread yet.

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:No one's coming to take away your old materials. One random person on twitter calling for them to stop selling them isn't going to override their decision to simply add disclaimers, which hurts no one. The slippery slope argument rarely holds weight. Re-evaluating old material in a modern light isn't hatred of the game or its fans. I have disagreed with what Wizards have done on many occasions, but never seen any reason to believe they are trying to do anything other than make the best products they can. Yes, they care about sales, but guess what, sales mean people like the product. No decision they make takes place in a vacuum, and there's no simple solution that will make it all go away and please everyone, but ultimately the actual actions they've taken or announced make very little negative impact on the game that I can see. Whether you see it as posturing or well-meaning contextualization is up to you. I choose to see it in a positive light. Ezra knows we could use something positive these days.

We've obviously got diverse views on the topic here, and I count that as a good thing. I don't know if anyone's changing their minds, but as long as we can debate with respect, I see no need to lock the thread yet.

I agree completely. There's no harm in disclaimers.

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:No one's coming to take away your old materials. One random person on twitter calling for them to stop selling them isn't going to override their decision to simply add disclaimers, which hurts no one. The slippery slope argument rarely holds weight.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:I agree completely. There's no harm in disclaimers.

I am 100% certain that certain products, such as Oriental Adventures and/or the offending Vistani products, will be pulled within three years. The disclaimers are a logical inconsistency. WotC has already conceded that they are racist. Their days are numbered.

Sure. I'll bite.

How is Oriental Adventures "racist"?

A quick google search showed me that a common complaint is that it stereotypes Asians. Notice I say "stereotypes". There is a huge difference between the two terms (racism and stereotyping), and not always are they interchangeable. If they were then TSR staffers are racist against western Europeans as they stereotype Middle Ages Europe in the game as well, which in turn means they are racist against themselves, assuming most have ancestral ties to that vast region (argument based on assumption that TSR were mostly "white" or, non-Asian). That's...odd, don't you think?

Am I missing something?

1985 was a time when us Westerners were still being introduced to stereotypes of Asian cultures (Japan in particular, what with ninja and samurai showing up on our tvs and VHS players). This introduction was arguably exploitation of culture by people from the culture being exploited. And I thank them for that. Sincerely. Our imaginations fired up and some of us were hooked to the point of developing cultural respect...once we got past initial stereotypes. I know of three gamers who moved to Japan to live and teach English, such was their interest in the culture. Yeah, dubbed ninja/samurai movies, anime, and Oriental Adventures were the catalyst. Believe it or not.

Can TSR in particular, Wizards in general, fairly be called "racist" for being a part of promoting those initial stereotypes? Could they possibly be forgiven for being caught up in their imaginations of the "mysterious and exotic Orient" (or even making a buck on the then "ninja craze")? Or are they just racists whose work should be put into a pile and burned?

You be the judge.

I think the argument is foolish, personally.

tomokaicho wrote:

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:No one's coming to take away your old materials. One random person on twitter calling for them to stop selling them isn't going to override their decision to simply add disclaimers, which hurts no one. The slippery slope argument rarely holds weight.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:I agree completely. There's no harm in disclaimers.

I am 100% certain that certain products, such as Oriental Adventures and/or the offending Vistani products, will be pulled within three years. The disclaimers are a logical inconsistency. WotC has already conceded that they are racist. Their days are numbered.

If they were to completely pull such products, they could easily have another problem on their hands: insufficient representation. A lot of basic D&D is designed to a more occidental, medieval European standard. Removing products which represent the Orient, as well as other cultures, makes the game's official scope much narrower. People can experiment with these settings and mythologies on their own, but they might wonder why the company supporting the game won't touch other cultures with a 99-and-1/2-foot pole. That could look far worse.

Really, it seems like it would behoove WotC to produce more sourcebooks detailing settings inspired by different cultures, such as those of Africa, the Americas, and the Middle East. More diversity will help in making better stories, and it will help bring in more players. It may be that these settings should be handled more delicately and less stereotypically, but that is alright. Going so far as to erase the older books (OA, Al-Qadim, and the like) would probably be asking for trouble. Committing to do better in the future seems like the more logical course of action.

I have some ideas about Vistani and other gypsies/seers/nomads for Ravenloft, some drawn from an old thread, but I think a new thread makes sense for that subject.
I'll put it up soon.

UPDATE: I'm doing it as two threads.
Neither is about the political and marketing stuff that has dominated this thread (not a slam on anybody-- I was a big part of getting this thread current tangent going).