Café de Nuit

Can anyone drunk enough to claim that there are five moons be trusted to distinguish a darkling, a vistana and a half-vistana?

I doubt anyone that drunk could even be trusted to pronounce darkling, Vistana and half-Vistana!

over the last few days I have been trying to read and absorb this lengthy thread and a few (possibly stupid) random thoughts popped into my head:

1) isn't the "grand GC" plan theory a little complex for a tanar'ri demon? I'm not a "if your chaotic your stupid" believer but come on, not only would the GC need a lot of knowledge of the demiplane but also knowledge of the Vistani? Maybe he is just going after vistani women for his brood cause there is somethign about them that tweaks his abyssal blood? A grand plot as some has described is a much more like a baatezu devil kind of plot...

2) the GC is a "succubus" in male form (as until the Savage Tide Dungeon adventure path there was no canon "incubus" tanar'ri and if you read that one, the GC is not an incubus) and a lesser tanar'ri…how did he get such knowledge on the run from the eladrin? And why to much greater and intelligent fiends that have studied the demiplane have not clued into the "GC brood vs the DP" thing?

3) If a reality ripple is that powerful to break a darklord's prison then why can't a fiend just teleport/planeshift out of the demiplane?

4) Is everyone assuming the DP are omniscient? Even the primal powers of the whole great wheel (or equivalent) are not all knowing...can't the DP make mistakes?

5) It seems to me everyone thinks Azalin came back from the void (or where ever his psyche was) with all his bells intact…maybe the purpose/results of his whole plan and "S"'s mission is one big delusion of his?

6) how does a real inter-domain war work when the Darklords can close their borders? Does closing a border also keep people out? And as for Borca how would the Falk/Invid alliance survive when their water is turned to poison? Would it have to be a 1 day assult where no one drinks in their time in Borca?

7) has everyone decided that the DP are tormenting jailors? I thought the purpose of the DP and demiplane will never be canon? And isn't that just Azalin's opinion, that he percieves them as tormenting jailors?

8 ) How powerful can the Dukkar (sp?) brat be if Eva/Vistani magics were able to imprison him in a domain?

whew..thanks

Eric the Light Bringer wrote: 6) how does a real inter-domain war work when the Darklords can close their borders? Does closing a border also keep people out? And as for Borca how would the Falk/Invid alliance survive when their water is turned to poison? Would it have to be a 1 day assult where no one drinks in their time in Borca?

IMC, this great change might be triggered with the death of one of the two darklords. If you recall, the Gaz IV clearly told us that, should Ivana die, Ivan would get control over the domain, but he and his corrupt men would not be able to manage the domain the way Ivana did. On the other hand, with the death of Ivan, there would be no more an army defending the borders and enforcing the law.
In one way or another, a pincer attack made by Invidia and Falkovnia would be timed exceedenly well (spies are born just for this), to maximize the impact of the chaos in Borca.

My guess is that, even with the succesful conquest, Drakov wouldn't be able to retain control over his portion of invaded territory (resistance? Poison, maybe?). After all, he IS a rotten leader.

Rock wrote:

Lord Cyclohexane wrote:(in response to the "S's bracer downloads her memories into a clone theory", posted by myself) BUT... You were the first with the "downloaded memories into the bracer" so you definitely kick ass! Congratulations!

I'm afraid I wasn't. ^^; After glancing back through the earlier parts of this very thread, I see Bloody Morgan beat me to the punch, I just don't think his theory was confirmed to be correct. Ah, well. I enjoyed the heady rush of being the first to be correct for a little while, anyways.

Wait, I was right about that? Wahoo! Two years down the line - vindication

Bloody Morgan wrote:

Rock wrote:

Lord Cyclohexane wrote:(in response to the "S's bracer downloads her memories into a clone theory", posted by myself) BUT... You were the first with the "downloaded memories into the bracer" so you definitely kick ass! Congratulations!

I'm afraid I wasn't. ^^; After glancing back through the earlier parts of this very thread, I see Bloody Morgan beat me to the punch, I just don't think his theory was confirmed to be correct. Ah, well. I enjoyed the heady rush of being the first to be correct for a little while, anyways.

Wait, I was write about that? Wahoo! Two years down the line - vindication

Congratulations. ^^ I'm glad you're happy.

Eric the Light Bringer wrote:4) Is everyone assuming the DP are omniscient? Even the primal powers of the whole great wheel (or equivalent) are not all knowing...can't the DP make mistakes?

No, the Dark Powers make mistakes. The Vecna affair was them biting off more than they could chew. The Shadow Rift was ultimately a result of the same. The Great Conjunction, which worked, but was collapsed by pesky adventurers, was them underestimating a Duhkar and Azalin, after Azalin had previous gone a long way towards escaping them with Strahd in tow on the little adventure that summoned Mordent into existence. Allowing fiends into the Mists is arguably a mistake and in any case, creates utter blindspots.

Jakob wrote:IMC, this great change might be triggered with the death of one of the two darklords. If you recall, the Gaz IV clearly told us that, should Ivana die, Ivan would get control over the domain, but he and his corrupt men would not be able to manage the domain the way Ivana did. On the other hand, with the death of Ivan, there would be no more an army defending the borders and enforcing the law.
In one way or another, a pincer attack made by Invidia and Falkovnia would be timed exceedenly well (spies are born just for this), to maximize the impact of the chaos in Borca.

My guess is that, even with the succesful conquest, Drakov wouldn't be able to retain control over his portion of invaded territory (resistance? Poison, maybe?). After all, he IS a rotten leader.

I didn't think of if Ivana or Ivan were actually killed...my gut would say the DP wouldn't allow it, as IMO their torments are magnified as long as they share the domain...

I was thinking more along the lives of Drakov's and the Dukkar's soldiers sent over into Borca (how many? probably atleast 50% of their forces, they seem that arrogant to do so), they all take a sip of water at some point and Ivana closes the border...so it's either death or stuck in Borca but killing the DLs would be a solution I guess...

cure wrote:No, the Dark Powers make mistakes. The Vecna affair was them biting off more than they could chew. The Shadow Rift was ultimately a result of the same. The Great Conjunction, which worked, but was collapsed by pesky adventurers, was them underestimating a Duhkar and Azalin, after Azalin had previous gone a long was towards escaping them with Strahd in tow on the little adventure that summoned Mordent into existence. Allowing fiends into the Mists is arguably a mistake and in any case, creates uttert blindspots.

I'm actually on the fence on if the DPs are near omniscient, since the true nature of the DP is (and never should be IMHO) unknown, there could be a "Grand Plan" and what seems like mistakes could very well be required steps in the plan...though I agree that a fiend's reality ripple/presence disrupts the very nature of the plane, so would seem a "mistake", but that also could be part of a Grand Plan too...like getting a flu shot (inject the disease into the body to build up the immune system)

Here is another idea to throw out (I don't think I'v seen it discussed before), since Vecna was able to the clutches of the DP when he increased his power rating of godhood (relatively) perhaps Azalin is using "S" to search the demiplane to assess the different tools and opprotunities available to become a god/power himself?

Eric the Light Bringer wrote:Here is another idea to throw out (I don't think I'v seen it discussed before), since Vecna was able to the clutches of the DP when he increased his power rating of godhood (relatively) perhaps Azalin is using "S" to search the demiplane to assess the different tools and opprotunities available to become a god/power himself?

As I recall, Vecna was a lesser god and managed to find a ritual and another lesser god as a donor so as to the steal the strength of the other and become a greater god.

Azalin has a long way to go. He is unworshiped which would be the very minimum for even demi-godhood I would think.

Eric the Light Bringer wrote:The Vecna affair was them biting off more than they could chew. The Shadow Rift was ultimately a result of the same.

I agree on Vecna. For the Shadow Rift, I'm not sure that was a case of the DPs' tackling something too big for them, but of a powerful third party (Gwydion) barging in on the Dark Powers' pet project uninvited, and some hurried damage-control on their part.

The Great Conjunction, which worked, but was collapsed by pesky adventurers, was them underestimating a Duhkar and Azalin, after Azalin had previous gone a long way towards escaping them with Strahd in tow on the little adventure that summoned Mordent into existence.

It's debatable how much of the GC was a mistake on the DPs' part, and how much was them deliberately yanking their captives' chains, letting them think they'd escaped and then snatching them up again. Certainly, the fact that a Tatyana-clone turned up in "Material Plane" Barovia was extremely suspicious: while the DPs can obviously create copies of her inside the Land of Mists, the idea that that they can plant one in the real Barovia, decades in advance of the GC, and have that duplicate blindly accepted as a cleric by Andral (who surely hates the DPs' guts, if any god does), seems contrived even for a Gothic story.

Allowing fiends into the Mists is arguably a mistake and in any case, creates utter blindspots.

Blind spots to the darklords. There's no rule that suggests the Dark Powers lose their own supremacy over reality wrinkles -- otherwise, it'd be impossible to fail a Powers check inside them -- so the existence of such wrinkles needn't conflict with their plans. After all, if the DPs really didn't want Good or Evil outsiders in Ravenloft, they could boot them out again via the Mists, and/or sabotage those spells that draw outsiders into the setting as well as those that banish them.

Rotipher of the FoS wrote: There's no rule that suggests the Dark Powers lose their own supremacy over reality wrinkles -- otherwise, it'd be impossible to fail a Powers check inside them -- so the existence of such wrinkles needn't conflict with their plans. After all, if the DPs really didn't want Good or Evil outsiders in Ravenloft, they could boot them out again via the Mists, and/or sabotage those spells that draw outsiders into the setting as well as those that banish them.

Then there is the amusing way they twist Isolde's reality wrinkle so you are clearly right here.

Eric the Light Bringer wrote:I didn't think of if Ivana or Ivan were actually killed...my gut would say the DP wouldn't allow it, as IMO their torments are magnified as long as they share the domain...

I was thinking more along the lives of Drakov's and the Dukkar's soldiers sent over into Borca (how many? probably atleast 50% of their forces, they seem that arrogant to do so), they all take a sip of water at some point and Ivana closes the border...so it's either death or stuck in Borca but killing the DLs would be a solution I guess...

Mind you... I said "In my campaign".
The killing of Ivana, I fear, will be a direct consequence of her actions. One of my PCs has a... Slight grudge against her.

cure wrote:

Rotipher of the FoS wrote: There's no rule that suggests the Dark Powers lose their own supremacy over reality wrinkles -- otherwise, it'd be impossible to fail a Powers check inside them -- so the existence of such wrinkles needn't conflict with their plans.

Then there is the amusing way they twist Isolde's reality wrinkle

True. And the very fact that fiends can't leave Ravenloft via their own powers, as Eric the Lightbringer had mentioned, shows that the Dark Powers' authority still holds sway inside a reality wrinkle, even if the local darklord's authority doesn't.