Café de Nuit

alhoon wrote: Specifically, what I ask is:
Would an angel strike an evil person down? Since the evil person has choice, there's always a slight chance for redemption. Or... is it? (Under Gothic morality there's no redemption after a point)

I guess it depends how 'mechanic-y' you want to be about this.

Mechanically, we have Corruption points and the descent into darkness, so an angel that was suitably informed about how Ravenloft works and was able to sense this corruption would certainly be aware of individuals who are 'irredeemably evil' and would likely feel no compunction against striking them down for their evil.

Of course, the Dark Powers don't seem to appreciate residents understanding how the rules work in the Dread Realms, so it's arguable that an angel wouldn't have that information and thus has to go more on 'gut instinct'. And gut instinct suggests fallibility -- the angel may have a rock-solid moral code, but the Dark Powers ensure that the angel never has enough information to be certain that her code is being applied correctly.

An angel makes a pretty interesting tragic hero in Ravenloft.

What about robbed-of-free-will creatures? Talons for example are made evil with a ritual. A remove curse breaks that (and usually drives the ex talon insane with shame and guilt). Would an angel strike a Talon dead if the angel didn't have access to remove curse?

That depends on how much the angel believes in free will. There's an old Yiddish proverb that goes, "If a man is destined to drown, he will drown in even a spoonful of water." There are any number of Gothic tales involving folks who were born under a bad sign or into a bad family, struggled against that influence, but finally gave in because that's what they were meant to do. It's not a popular trope in modern storytelling, but it's defensible in the Gothic tradition.

In other situations, killing someone enslaved to evil against their will would be a mercy, as it would free the soul from its enslavement.

Not sure if this helps you answer the question in a general sense, but it's probably worth knowing that there are 'justifiable homicides' even for a purely good creature. I doubt that a truly good creature in Ravenloft would ever feel wholly comfortable taking the life of an enemy, even when it can be justified.

Note that I speak from an "Angel is always perfect, always does the right thing and never, ever falls for the "for the greater good" or "the end justifies the means" traps" point of view.

This seems to me to be a very difficult path to travel in Ravenloft, as the Dark Powers seem to revel in revealing the flaws in what others consider 'perfect'. A thoughtful angel would likely end up questioning her formerly 'perfect' judgment, while a thoughtless one...well, there's probably a reason that the Dark Powers gave the Darklords the ability to sense outsiders in their domains.

--
Pauper

Very nice post up above. I like that it lays out that while the Angel may be "perfect" what the Dark Powers might consider perfect is a different thing. I forget what's invovled in a power ritual but would an angel have to do the same things to get a power ritual and be more linked to the land or would they have a different set of things to do? This is making me think of a trapped angel right now and I'm wondering if I might use that in my game at some point.....

Pauper wrote:

What about robbed-of-free-will creatures? Talons for example are made evil with a ritual. A remove curse breaks that (and usually drives the ex talon insane with shame and guilt). Would an angel strike a Talon dead if the angel didn't have access to remove curse?

In other situations, killing someone enslaved to evil against their will would be a mercy, as it would free the soul from its enslavement.

Works very well for my purposes.
And as I said: If the angel does it, then it's unquestionably a good thing. I.e. my PCs will not suffer alignment changes etc for "freeing a person's soul after it was enslaved by evil" etc. After all, it's a game. Personally I don't consider it good but I will for the game. Because I just want an excuse for PCs to be able to kill Talons without committing evil acts.

Pauper wrote:

Note that I speak from an "Angel is always perfect" point of view.

This seems to me to be a very difficult path to travel in Ravenloft, as the Dark Powers seem to revel in revealing the flaws in what others consider 'perfect'. A thoughtful angel would likely end up questioning her formerly 'perfect' judgment, while a thoughtless one...well, there's probably a reason that the Dark Powers gave the Darklords the ability to sense outsiders in their domains.

I would respectfully disagree with this point of view and wouldn't adopt it. In my game, an angel doesn't have free will, he doesn't even have the ability to question his deity's motives or moral code let alone stray from it. Not more than a calculator has the ability to question whether "1+1=2". It's a tool that solves problems and the angel is an extension of the deity's will.
The dark powers revel in revealing flaws in one's judgment, but this is for mortals that see shades of grey and try to judge. The angel doesn't have judgment per se, he doesn't decide or choose, he doesn't weight options.

NOTE: Nor do fiends BTW IMC. A fiend has no free will either.

But can a tool work without a hand to work it? I thought Ravenloft cut you off from your god hence why there's a crisis of faith for a good number of outsider adventurer's that come to this place. (Not that many groups play up this factor) Though curiously how are angels made in your game? Are they from the dead worshipers of the religion they work for? Do evil gods have Angel's too? I mean plenty of Demons or Devils serve evil deities, and traditionally angels serve good deities. Generally I've thought of Ravenloft as a "God Forsaken" place meaning the gods wouldn't touch the place. Any of the 'divine' power comes from the Dark Powers. Now I know not everyone does that but curiously what's your reason for that if not?

I don't see why killing Talon's WOULDN'T be a good thing. It may not be the "best" thing to do in the morality scale but it's far from an evil act depending on the situation of course. I mean if they are bound, tied, and defenseless... then they go up to them and Coup De Grace without so much as a second thought. But I doubt most groups would just do that unless they were of already questionable morals.

alhoon wrote:

Pauper wrote:

alhoon wrote:Note that I speak from an "Angel is always perfect" point of view.

This seems to me to be a very difficult path to travel in Ravenloft, as the Dark Powers seem to revel in revealing the flaws in what others consider 'perfect'. A thoughtful angel would likely end up questioning her formerly 'perfect' judgment, while a thoughtless one...well, there's probably a reason that the Dark Powers gave the Darklords the ability to sense outsiders in their domains.

I would respectfully disagree with this point of view and wouldn't adopt it. In my game, an angel doesn't have free will, he doesn't even have the ability to question his deity's motives or moral code let alone stray from it. Not more than a calculator has the ability to question whether "1+1=2". It's a tool that solves problems and the angel is an extension of the deity's will.
The dark powers revel in revealing flaws in one's judgment, but this is for mortals that see shades of grey and try to judge. The angel doesn't have judgment per se, he doesn't decide or choose, he doesn't weight options.

NOTE: Nor do fiends BTW IMC. A fiend has no free will either.

Interesting point -- and, at least with respect to angels, one that's been pretty hotly debated IRL. The real sticking point is that, if an angel doesn't have free will, then how do angels 'fall'? It suggests that any angel that does succumb to evil was meant to do so, which really throws a wrench in the idea that angels are perfect executors of divine good will. (It also puts a very weird spin on Diamabel.)

The fiend portion, though, I'm not sure works. So does that mean arch-fiends also don't have free will? Do you gain freedom by becoming an arch-fiend? If you do gain freedom by becoming an arch-fiend, how do you actually accomplish that, since you don't have the free will to pursue becoming free willed? And if arch-fiends don't have free will either, does that mean every fiend is ultimately a servant of an evil deity? How does that work in Ravenloft, where even the gods don't have easy access? (And let's not forget the Gentleman Caller, among other famous Ravenloft fiends. Are they just acting on 'evil programming', or are they actually evil?)

Granted, most of these questions are probably beyond the scope of an individual campaign; unless the players are angels/fiends or are planning to interact with them on a fairly regular basis, the point likely won't ever come up. But I think the point is still worth considering, as the impact of these questions, and what they say about the nature of good and evil, will have far-reaching impacts on your campaign world. For instance, if angels don't have free will, then how is killing an angel any different from killing a Talon? And if the answer is 'because angels are good and Talons are evil', then aren't you messing around with one of the core assumptions of the game by giving the players a bedrock statement of 'X is good, Y is evil'?

--
Pauper

How angels fall? They never ever fall.
I don't like the "fallen angel" kind of thing at all. In Planescape campaign, I might go for it, but if I ran such a campaign, the outsiders wouldn't be perfect creatures. They will be powerful people with strong moral code and funny colors made by the Gods, not infallible creatures etc etc.

Archfiends having free will? Nope. That's for when they become deities and even then, it won't be a free will the kind of humanity. An evil outsider deity cannot become good or neutral. The true power of a mortal is his or her free will, the ability to choose whether to be good, bad or in-between. They're judged for their choices but they have the power to make those choices. In this, angels and fiends are in awe of humans. Angels, fiends and even lesser deities that were risen from outsiders try to comprehend this ability to choose.

Interesting, but if you go with Angels and fiends are preprogrammed no matter what they do it's not necessarily them doing the action. Fiends and Demons that serve an Evil Deity for example can you really blame them for how they act? They are just going forth with their current programs unable to deviate or falter. Does this make charmed or enchanted people that do Evil acts worthy of death? They are following the same principle of not having a choice in the matter and following precoded instructions.

How would you know that there wasn't another way to save them? Or give free will to Angels or Devils? Where they born into existence destined that way? I understand no fallen angels in your game but then how do gods come to be? How do gods die if not fall? Traditionally a good amount of gods spring from Mortal origins, at least in my campaigns and in Faerun.

Zilfer wrote: Traditionally a good amount of gods spring from Mortal origins, at least in my campaigns and in Faerun.

Don't forget Greyhawk in that mix. Zagyg, Iuz, Vecna and a slew of others.

Resonant Curse wrote:

Zilfer wrote: Traditionally a good amount of gods spring from Mortal origins, at least in my campaigns and in Faerun.

Don't forget Greyhawk in that mix. Zagyg, Iuz, Vecna and a slew of others.

Yeah my main point I think I was trying to get across is how can an angel serving something that can had fault be able to not have fault. If I became a god and had angels how can we be 100% sure none of my mortal morals are affecting the Angel's preprogrammed ideas. (Gods have conflicting views on what is good and not so an angel of Zilfer compared to an Angel of Alhoon compared to an Angel of Gonzoron will all have conflicting beliefs on what should be done in a situation and could each believe a different action to a situation was "Good")

alhoon wrote:How angels fall? They never ever fall.
I don't like the "fallen angel" kind of thing at all. In Planescape campaign, I might go for it, but if I ran such a campaign, the outsiders wouldn't be perfect creatures. They will be powerful people with strong moral code and funny colors made by the Gods, not infallible creatures etc etc.

Archfiends having free will? Nope. That's for when they become deities and even then, it won't be a free will the kind of humanity. An evil outsider deity cannot become good or neutral. The true power of a mortal is his or her free will, the ability to choose whether to be good, bad or in-between. They're judged for their choices but they have the power to make those choices. In this, angels and fiends are in awe of humans. Angels, fiends and even lesser deities that were risen from outsiders try to comprehend this ability to choose.

This seems contradictory to your statement of your angels being but tools or mouthpieces for your gods. If they're perfect moral beings, they should just "get" what they need to know about human free will/ability to choose and have no room (nor need) for wonder or awe. After all, things like wonder and awe mean the possibility of not knowing something, and that can lead to err and thus to sin. I would also ask you what purpose this awe and attempted comprehension of the ability to choose. After all, a robot doesn't get curious about my free will unless it's been programmed to.

The Lesser Evil wrote:

alhoon wrote:How angels fall? They never ever fall.
I don't like the "fallen angel" kind of thing at all. In Planescape campaign, I might go for it, but if I ran such a campaign, the outsiders wouldn't be perfect creatures. They will be powerful people with strong moral code and funny colors made by the Gods, not infallible creatures etc etc.

Archfiends having free will? Nope. That's for when they become deities and even then, it won't be a free will the kind of humanity. An evil outsider deity cannot become good or neutral. The true power of a mortal is his or her free will, the ability to choose whether to be good, bad or in-between. They're judged for their choices but they have the power to make those choices. In this, angels and fiends are in awe of humans. Angels, fiends and even lesser deities that were risen from outsiders try to comprehend this ability to choose.

This seems contradictory to your statement of your angels being but tools or mouthpieces for your gods. If they're perfect moral beings, they should just "get" what they need to know about human free will/ability to choose and have no room (nor need) for wonder or awe. After all, things like wonder and awe mean the possibility of not knowing something, and that can lead to err and thus to sin. I would also ask you what purpose this awe and attempted comprehension of the ability to choose. After all, a robot doesn't get curious about my free will unless it's been programmed to.

Yes, I'm thinking if you want to use them how you are they should literally almost be robots. Unyeilding against what they know and interacting with mortals is very dangerous. If Isolde knows someone living is wrong she'd in your version flat out kill them because it has no doubt in her mind that they are evil. While this is a very good premise for a game, questioning whether gods servants are "good" for humanity or the gods they serve are truly heartless? I've pulled some interesting things putting a "price to be paid" for Law and Order type god before. It was a custom one but the players were surprised.

Zilfer wrote: If Isolde knows someone living is wrong she'd in your version flat out kill them because it has no doubt in her mind that they are evil.

Yeap, I like it exactly that way. And my problem is determining the motives of each "mouthpiece and tool" of the Gods. Who Isolde knows should not be living according to her moral code is different by who say a LG angel knows should not be living.
For Isolde for example, I've already (thanks to this thread) determined that she would have no problem killing Talons putting them in the "I should release them from their magical prison of evil by using my sword" category. A LG Angel wouldn't do it though. Instead he would put in the same category forced-to-chaotic-evil people.

In essence I don't determine what an angel would do, but what is "chaotic good" and what is "lawful good" when it comes to killing Talons or not in my campaign. (And it would be different in the next campaign ).

The Lesser Evil wrote: This seems contradictory to your statement of your angels being but tools or mouthpieces for your gods. If they're perfect moral beings, they should just "get" what they need to know about human free will/ability to choose and have no room (nor need) for wonder or awe. After all, things like wonder and awe mean the possibility of not knowing something, and that can lead to err and thus to sin. I would also ask you what purpose this awe and attempted comprehension of the ability to choose. After all, a robot doesn't get curious about my free will unless it's been programmed to.

Yeap, you're right. Angels\fiends\modrons\slaadi* etc know they're different than humans and that humans have choice where they see none. And don't care. As you said, awe and wonder are problematic for perfect creatures. Fiends would actually make fun of mortals and Celestials would pity them or something. Or not. I have to decide, but it won't be wonder and awe.
Thanks.

* Slaadi: Now, that's a problem. Slaadi IMC are creatures of pure chaos... (No chaotic evil slaadi! Death slaadi are non-existant IMC). And "Creatures of pure chaos and randomness" means they have a small chance to be anti-chaos.
I really don't plan to use a Slaad anytime soon. But I want the option on the table. Would a weird Slaad "I'll not conform to the norm of all you chaotics and I'll fight for order to be different!" be actually CN that chaotically and erratically fights for order not really knowing what it means? Or would it know how to try and bring order?

A slaad could fight for order to preserve the individuality component of chaos. You're probably scratching your head and saying "WTF does that have to do with?" but hear me out. A constant enough state of chaos is changing so often that a true stable identity is impossible. Think of how the chaos beast is more or less an identityless ball of constant change, or how mobs of gibberlings chaotically follow the whims of a single or few leaders of that second. Neither creature has development of an individual identity because they're always in eternal flux.

It's funny -- when I suggested the 'killing those enslaved to evil is a mercy' trope as a solution for Alhoon's angelic moral question, I'd forgotten about the sidebar in Gazetteer III which suggests exactly the opposite -- that a character who kills an Obedient in Dementlieu knowing that the NPC is a slave of the darklord has to undergo a Powers Check for committing an evil act.

Ultimately, it's your own campaign, and morality in that campaign will be as you define it. One of the things I like about the Ravenloft setting though, is that despite the clear existence of good and evil, the morality of the core setting isn't black-and-white. Those characters who seem most devoted to a Manichean, good-versus-evil worldview tend to be the ones closest aligned with evil, save for a few true moral paragons like George Weathermay and Rudolph van Richten. Even so, the danger is that if you lose your way, you too can become an Elena Faith-Hold. That's exactly the sort of challenge I like to play up in my own game.

--
Pauper

Both VR and Weathermay have a nice closet full of skeletons though...