Café de Nuit

The proof is that Lords of Madness and several other books put forward that illithid are from the future. If you can accept that the aboleths cannot remember the illithid or where/when they're from- then illithid from the future is just as acceptable.

Besides, even if the illithid cropped up all of the sudden- it would take them hundreds if not thousands of years to develop their culture...again- aboleths would've known about them as they compete for the same resources.

The way its done is by the illithid evolving in the far future so it can make sense that they don't have guns and laser rifles as you put it. If you're a psionic race with talented mages- making guns and what we'd consider advanced technology isn't necessary.

It may be fairly sci-fi but Illithid are already a rough fit for Ravenloft so it doesn't matter. The point is that the God-Brain could still be the first elder brain from that distant future.

And no- Ilsensine did not create the illithid, it just regards them as most worthy of all mortal races as they share similar agendas. Read up on Ilsensine.

Since Illithid require a constantly moist environment and they share appearances with cephalopods (many of which are very intelligent) they likely evolved from ocean dwellers, not unlike squid or octopi, into marsh dwelling parasites.

Warm-Blooded humanoids are usually the only possible hosts for tadpoles they also must've evolved in an environment that posessed them. This also supports that they can be from the future.

Wikipedia history of the Illithid FWIW:

"History

The origins of the illithids are often shrouded in mystery, with conflicting stories offered in various D&D products, in past editions and in the current version of the game. These different versions can be taken as successive retcons or simply different stories hiding the true nature of the illithids, which may be something else entirely.

The 3rd Edition D&D book Lords of Madness states that illithids are refugees from a far distant future. Facing extinction at the hands of some unknown adversary, they sacrificed a large number of elder brains to generate a temporal rift that transported the survivors aeons into the past, but little more than a mere two thousand years before the present (in this sense, they are aberrations because they exist before their natural time).[14]

The 2nd Edition book The Illithiad suggests they may be from the Far Realm, an incomprehensible plane completely alien to the known multiverse. There is no mention of time travel in this theory. Instead, they emerged somewhere and somewhen countless thousands of years ago, beyond the histories of many mortal races, and spread from one world to another, and another, and so on. It is explicitly stated in this book that the illithids appear in some of the most ancient histories of the most ancient races, even those that have no mention of other races.

The 4th Edition preview Wizards Presents Worlds and Monsters supports the claim that mind flayers originate from the Far Realm.

In these two differing versions of the story, much of the variance hinges upon a fictional text called The Sargonne Prophecies. The Illithiad described the Prophecies as misnamed, and that much of it sounds more like ancient myth than prophecy. Lords of Madness takes the name more literally, and states that The Sargonne Prophecies are in fact prophecy — or, perhaps more accurately, a history of the future.

Yet another version came from The Astromundi Cluster, a Spelljammer boxed set produced before The Illithiad. This version holds that the illithids are descended from the outcasts of an ancient human society that ruled the now-shattered world called Astromundi. The outcast humans eventually mutated, deep underground, into the mind flayers. (This boxed set also introduced the entity known as Lugribossk, who was depicted as a god of the Astromundi flayers then, but was later retconned into a proxy of the god Ilsensine.) In the retconned history of the illithids found in either The Illithiad or Lords of Madness, the emergence of illithids in Astromundi becomes a freak occurrence due to the intervention of Ilsensine through its proxy, since the illithids of Astromundi have their own histories as emerging solely upon that world.

However and whenever it occurred, when the illithids arrived in the Material Plane of the far past, they immediately began to build an empire by enslaving many sentient creatures. They were very successful, and soon their worlds-spanning empire became the largest one the multiverse had ever seen. They had the power — in terms of psychic potency and the manpower of countless slaves — to fashion artificial worlds. One such world was this empire's capital, called Penumbra, a diskworld built around a star, which was a thousand years in the making. Such was their might that the Blood War paused as the demons and devils considered a truce to deal with the illithid empire.

Eventually, the primary slave race of the illithids developed resistance to the mental powers of their masters, and revolted. Led by the warrior Gith, the rebellion spread to all the illithids' worlds, and the empire collapsed. The illithid race itself seemed doomed.

Fortunately for the illithids, Gith was betrayed by one of her own generals, Zerthimon, who believed she had grown tyrannical and over-aggressive. Civil war erupted, and the race factionalised into the githyanki and the githzerai. This disruption allowed the illithids to retreat to underground strongholds where they still dwell."

Archedius wrote:And no- Ilsensine did not create the illithid, it just regards them as most worthy of all mortal races as they share similar agendas. Read up on Ilsensine.

Fabulous detail that. Also true of Maanzecorian?

Archedius wrote:Since Illithid require a constantly moist environment and they share appearances with cephalopods (many of which are very intelligent) they likely evolved from ocean dwellers, not unlike squid or octopi, into marsh dwelling parasites.

Now why does this make me think of a ceremorphised whale . . . . A giant squid too, although it is slightly redundent given the tentacles.

High Priest Mikhal wrote:And actually they're quite capable of making spelljammers. They just can't recreate the event that allowed them to go back in time.

I am not especially inclined to maintain that Lords of Madness has the last word on this, still here is its take on Nautiloids from p. 69:

"The great ships are remnants of their glorious future, when their
empire will span not just worlds but the entire universe (see
The Whispering Shadow, below). The knowledge of how to
build these stunning vessels is lost—or, more correctly, hasn’t
been discovered yet. Until it is, the remaining ships ply the
great gulfs of the night skies cautiously, seeking evidence of
lost mind-fl ayer colonies and hidden githyanki outposts."

I also seem to recall reading somewhere they the source of the shells is at present unknown.

High Priest Mikhal wrote: Finally, elder brains are formed by the fusion of illithid brains in the brine pool. If enough illithids survive an elder brain's death it's possible for them to recreate it by the same means they sustain and grow it.

I would like to look over the details of this, where is this account offered?

Check out the excellent article Illsensine: Psi & Omega on planewalker.

And here is Yet another illithid origin story.

cure wrote:Wikipedia history of the Illithid FWIW:

"History

[...]

The 3rd Edition D&D book Lords of Madness states that illithids are refugees from a far distant future. Facing extinction at the hands of some unknown adversary, they sacrificed a large number of elder brains to generate a temporal rift that transported the survivors aeons into the past, but little more than a mere two thousand years before the present (in this sense, they are aberrations because they exist before their natural time).[14]

The 2000 year should be assumed a typo. 20000 makes much more sense, given that 157 Vlaakith's must have ruled since then. See also this post by rip.

Also you omitted a few more origins from the wikipedia entry:

Dungeon #100 claims the original home of the gith forerunners was a world known as Pharagos. Currently it is described as, "an unremarkable Material-Plane world, a far cry from the hotbed of magical activity and divine intervention that is the Forgotten Realms campaign or the World of Greyhawk." Beneath the Wasting Desert on that world, however, is the petrified corpse of the long-dead patron deity of the ancestors of the gith races. As is recounted in most 1st and 2nd edition sources, the ancestors of the gith forerunners were a human civilization before being modified by countless generations of illithid breeding and profane science.

The background material of the Chainmail game[20] places the gith forerunners in a subterranean empire called Zarum in Western Oerik, where they dominated many other races from their capital city of Anithor. These gith seem to have been divided into a rigid caste system, their lives ruled by ancient ritual. The ruins of Zarum overflow with sacred spaces and temples, though the names of the ancient gith gods are unknown today. The period of Zarum's height is not entirely clear, but grey elf sages speculate it was approximately 2,000 years before the Demon Wars that ravaged Western Oerik, or 3,000 years before the present.

At some point, the illithids invaded Zarum from a neighboring plane of existence. Though the gith fought fiercely, they were no match for the psionic might of the mind flayers, and soon they were enslaved. The River of Angry Souls is a remnant of one of the terrible battles between the illithids and the soon-to-be enslaved gith. Many were brought to the Outer Planes and elsewhere to serve as illithid slaves. Other cities in Zarum were transformed into work pits where illithid overseers forced their slaves to toil for countless generations.

After Gith's rebellion, she led her people to the Astral Plane. While a few subject races and surviving illithids remained on Oerth, the gith forerunners have departed the world, seemingly for good. If they retain any interest in the ruins of Zarum, it is well concealed. A portion of the ruins of Anithor were eventually colonized by the drow of House Kilsek, who named their new settlement Kalan-G'eld.

cure wrote:

High Priest Mikhal wrote:And actually they're quite capable of making spelljammers. They just can't recreate the event that allowed them to go back in time.

I am not especially inclined to maintain that Lords of Madness has the last word on this, still here is its take on Nautiloids from p. 69:

"The great ships are remnants of their glorious future, when their
empire will span not just worlds but the entire universe (see
The Whispering Shadow, below). The knowledge of how to
build these stunning vessels is lost—or, more correctly, hasn’t
been discovered yet. Until it is, the remaining ships ply the
great gulfs of the night skies cautiously, seeking evidence of
lost mind-fl ayer colonies and hidden githyanki outposts."

I also seem to recall reading somewhere they the source of the shells is at present unknown.

They can't recreate nautiloids, I agree. Those would likely be massive warships that dwarf even the largest spelljammer. They seem more than able to create lesser ships and I can see the largest colonies, hidden well away in the deepest recesses of the Astral Plane, using such to go on brain harvests across the worlds of the Material Plane.

cure wrote:

High Priest Mikhal wrote: Finally, elder brains are formed by the fusion of illithid brains in the brine pool. If enough illithids survive an elder brain's death it's possible for them to recreate it by the same means they sustain and grow it.

I would like to look over the details of this, where is this account offered?

That is largely an educated guess. It logically follows that a new elder brain could be borne in the same way existing ones are maintained and grown. I also admit to the idea being influenced by the Zerg fom StarCraft; a bunch of cerebrates join together after the Overmind is destroyed to create a new one. It's also drawn from hive insects in that a new center of the colony (a queen, an elder brain, etc.) is created when a given colony gets too big. The immature core and the drones that protect and feed it seek out a new place to colonize.

So elder brains could "bud" new ones, or existing illithids could merge some of their existing brains together. The elder brain is anlogous to queens and hive insects and some insect species do have ways to restore a colony whose queen is killed, often by a drone undergoing a hormone storm and metamorphosing into a new queen. Since elder brains are just the collected brain matter of countless illithids, I imagine that they could merge their brains to birth a new one--say using no less than five brains. The new elder brain would take time to grow into its power, and illithids are so attached to their elder brains only the most aberrant would think of taking advantage of an immature elder brain. After all, the same brine pool that houses the elder brain also houses illithid tadpoles; they may in fact need the elder brain for their tadpoles to mature.

Archedius wrote:
And no- Ilsensine did not create the illithid, it just regards them as most worthy of all mortal races as they share similar agendas. Read up on Ilsensine.



Fabulous detail that. Also true of Maanzecorian?

Nope- Maanzecorian could be seen as a Christ-like deity for Illithid that arose from mortal status as Ilsensine lay dormant. When Ilsensine awoke, it forced Maanzecorian into subservience. Tenebrous later killed Maanzecorian then the Gith desecrated the body.

It can't be denied that illithid need humanoids for food and reproduction so a ceremorphosed whale is certainly rediculous but I don't doubt it's been attempted.

Regardless of when the Illithid are from, the DP's and mists make it possible for the God-Brain to still be the first deceiver.

But I do admit that an attempt at divinity might explain the God-Brains' desire for mobility and sensation as attempted ascension might've provided just enough of a taste of those to plant the seeds of discontent.

Fun thread ( I love Illithid)

I am unsure to what extent the following is based on canon, but the interesting point for us is the origin of elder brains http://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/campagne/mon ... nsine.html:

"[An] entire world fell to Ilsensine’s power. This long-forgotten world became the seat of the Illithid Hegemony, and an even more horrific fate befell the last demigod remaining on this long-forgotten world as Ilsensine itself Ceremorphosized it; turning it into the Eldest Brain. The Eldest Brain, in turn, used astral travel to reach other realms in The Mortal Coil, creating lesser images of itself, and the cycle of conquests and domination began."

Were we to put stock in this, the God-Brain's desire to be properly incarnated is a slight rewakening of a memory of its prior existence as a mobile, able demigod.

It's Dicefreaks- they do their own thing (not canon). You should see what they've done to the Lower planes : )

Don't really feel how that'd make for an interesting darklord though. It was basically forced upon and it is canon that Ilsensine did not create the Illithid race but does take some of them as worshippers.

I don't see how the God-Brain would've damned itself in that situation- where's the knowing decision between good and evil?

At least in the deception of the iliithid proposal there is the choice for the soon-to-be-god-brain to deceive it's kin for power or not to. I still prefer the deception-origin as it would be unique and certainly interest the DP's.

Some more, some less, interesting ideas about Blutspur from the old Ravenloft list:

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.ex ... t-l&P=2973
(added for your viewing pleasure)

"Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:22:02 -0800
Reply-To: The Ravenloft campaign setting <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: The Ravenloft campaign setting <[log in to unmask]>
From: jeffrey williams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Illithids,
away from the moon and into the Ravenloft once again (Was:
Ithillids in RL and moon race)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I'm going to throw in my two cents because I like illithids.... As for Bluetspur. It's a domain of illithid. Mind flayers. Not really particularly good for RL (again, IMHO). [New] Nonsense, (IMHO), Bluetspur is the domain of ultimate terror and unfathomable horrors, much like H.P Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos. The whole domains screams elder races, weird alien technologies, psionic artifacts, forgotten gods, slithering beasts and other terror of the dark best left to whatever foul corners darkness that spawn them. And now with the newly published Call of Cthulhu D20 Rule books (I bought mine Thursday), I can include many elements of CoC d20 book with the psionics handbook, and the new Ravenloft Hardback d20 sourcebook. Ah, at last a true Domain of Horrors thanks to D20. Ravenloft will never be the same. ==== I allow myself to disagree. As it was horrible situation to have completely alien Blatespur (sp?) near Transylvanian-like Barovia, the Grand Conjunction mad things better by throwing the God-Brain and it's kin into the Mists. I thought that it should remain their forever obscured and forgotten until someone (I don't remember who exactly) came with idea of Blatespur as RL moon...... <snipped> The DL is a big ol' brain in a pool of salt water. It's a collection of smaller brains, etc. I believe John Mangrum had a pretty good article about it in one of the first of the kargatane netbooks... might be worth checking in to.==== [New] There's a second edition AD&D book called The Illthiad. One of the best books they published before they convert to the D20 system rules. Much of it can be modified into the third edition and is worth the buy if you can find a copy in a hobby store or at a convention. It's worth the purchase. There is also a triology of Illithid-based modules that WotC published three or four years ago. The names escape my memory, but they are companionbooks to the Illithiad. [New] Ughhnn, the moon. Sorry for the brief bout of pain. Maybe its something to do with the illithid standing in the hallway of my house. 8^ ) While the moon has merit, it just makes the game more Alternity/Dark Matter than Ravenloft. However, throwing Bluetspur into the mists of Ravenloft (as an island) was a good idea while it lasted, but it simply isn't realistic in the long term. However, I'm fond and I like the idea of placing Bluetspur in the Nocturnal Sea or make it apart of the Steaming Lands Cluster, like somewhere near the Wildlands. My idea was to make or change Bluetspur into a larger island-like domain surrounded by a large body of fresh water (again somewhere near the Steaming Lands cluster). The domain of Bluetspur would be larger, but its proximity to a fresh water outlet (Think of the Mississippi River going into the Gulf of Mexico) reduced the amount of available salt water in the region. The same can be true if the domain in placed near Vechor at its South Eastern most tip. Now to the Illithids of Bluetspur, this is stresses their resources and keeps their birthrate in check by means of a natural barrier, nothing psionic or magical working here. If the illithid tries to swim or remains submerged in water too long, it will eventually die. Second, this forces the illithids to keep scavenging and donating a large quantities of salt to keeping the Elder Brain alive. If you have any knowledge of ecology, placing a fresh water fish in saltwater, or a saltwater fish in fresh water will kill it over time. This dependency on saltwater could part of the curse handed out by the Darklords. For Bluetspur's native population and its god-brain (bear with me, I'm borrowing some stuff from 2 Ed.), this new found change of realty does several things: One, it insures the Elder Brain dominates overall and that if he dies, the illithid society unravels and 'dies' with it. Sad, but it's a consequence of Ravenloft's new position in the Core. Second, they are closer to the Core of Ravenloft yet, still far away. Bluetspur is still a forbidden domain and maintains it sense of woe, but now rests in a state of quasi-isolation. They, the population of Bluetspur, are now heavily dependent on three, four, or any number of secret trade routes they established. These secret trade routes give them an air of mystery and fear. Something they can use to their advantages, especially if they want people or contraband to vanish without a trace. Third, the Illithids of Bluetspur are forced to dominate lesser species and use them to negotiate, acquire, and transport resources not available in their domains. The Illithids can create and use a cult or secret society (dedicated to an evil god of the sea) to inspire terror, enforce their will, and most of all secrecy. The cult could manage the servants and act as intermediaries (private and public in another guise) while searching for the curious, the snoopy or individuals who get to close to the truth. The Illthids living on the main land would be Overseers of the cult. In either case, the illthids could psionicly dominate a few trading posts on the other side of the domains. This would enable them to have access to the resources they need to get their large society healthy and strong. Again, salt, sugar (brain food for the slaves) and slaves could be big imports into these trading centers. While the traders, under the psionic influence of the illithids, could export copper, tin, iron, carbon and gemstones into the surrounding lands. Bluetspur, while sparse of fauna and flora, has large quantities of mineral resources and exploitable metals. Something the core may need, especially Falkovia and Darkon. Fourth, while physically immobile, the Elder Brain can move, sense and act through a host for a limited duration. It's massive neural energies will 'burn out' its host body, but it can actively spy on other domains and possible their Lords, but never truly leave it abode. This doubles the curse the Darklords have imposed on the Elder-Brain. It needs its servants (human or demi-human) to survive and maintain to cohesion of the colony, something the illithids despise. But then again cattle is cattle. Fifth, Bluetspur is an overly hostile environment to explorers and native illithids alike. Many weird and exotic creature roam the lands or have managed to find and niche in the islands ecosystem for their own exploitation. Although mentally superior to all forms of life in Bluetspur, many of the monsters are immune, have greater resistances, are physically stronger, or their level or degree of intelligence or physiology makes psionics almost useless in combat. Bluetspur can host a variety of miners (an outdoor cousin of the trapper/lurker above), Bulettes, Behirs, Carrion Clawers, Destrachans, Fungi Monsters, Deadly Molds, Gibbering Mouthers Otyughs, or almost any creature that can be fathomed in the imagination. Death lurks behind every rock, every forgotten trail and every canyon. Lightning that once riddled the domain is now less occurent along the domain's shorelines, but grows increasing dangerous as one approaches the Twin mountains of Gryst and Makab. The sandy beaches and shore lines have their own horror. The beaches have been known to swallow unwary explores, like a yawning maw, without leaving a trace or a cry for help. One or two trading centers are home to dominated humans and demi-humans that have bread with something unhuman. These monster acts as assassins, shock troopers, and fighters for the illithids. Sixth, ruins of a human civilization can be found in certain parts of Bluetspur. Once home to the Thaan, they fled the destruction and assimilation of their lands into Ravenloft and have settled throughout the Southern Portions of the Core. They could make valuable allies against theElder God-Brain. JW"

Aaargg, the horror. That text-wall could use some formatting.

Here's a link to original and better formated email. To get the whole context search for "illithid moon" here.

More dangers to the illithids themselves and less lightning, at least away from the central peak of the realm, seem like excellent suggestions.

I also like the idea of imported essential resources, perhaps beyond brains and thralls, together with the possible exportation of resources, plus the thralls/frontmen to make such exchange work.

I am not so sold on the moon idea, but I like a little more a sea-bound island, but ultimately have no great problem with Blutspur as it is currently [edit] Mist-bound.

The possibility of the God Brain swapping its consciousness into that of a humanoid is broached by the mind swap psiconic power, but there are no real hints in canon that I see that weigh upon the feasibility of this. Obviously, one can simply stipulate that the Dark Powers would consider such to be a transgression of the creatures curse and simply forbid it. Alternatively, the text in effect suggests that such switches, more or less rapidly, burn up and consume the new host, which is a very elegant solution.

The idea of ancient human (or other) ruins is appealling too. But invites questions as to how the human exiles of Blutspur fit into the picture.

cure wrote:I am not so sold on the moon idea, but I like a little more a sea-bound island, but ultimately have no great problem with Blutspur as it is currently mist-bound.

There's mist-bound, and then there's Mist-bound. Just because it's called "the Misty Border" doesn't mean a domain's boundaries can't take the form of something wierder, and Bluetspur ought to have one of the wierdest.

Remember how, in The Call Of Cthulhu, one of the sailors fleeing from Rl'yeh got swallowed up by an angle in the masonry that didn't bend the way it appeared to? Perhaps Bluetspur's borders work through bizarre, unnatural shifts in geometry, that cause anyone who tries to leave to be warped to whatever destination the God-Brain chooses, or dimensionally shifted out of existence ... geometric shifts, that can potentially engulf people anywhere there are angles, whether in or out of Ravenloft.

Heck, maybe Bluetspur is where that poor sailor from Rl'yeh wound up....

Interesting tidbit:

"An extremely ancient elder brain is called a god brain, because its psionic powers are almost limitless."

But unfortunately no precise reference for it, only the following: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid