Café de Nuit

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:I get that an able-bodied players playing a disabled character has some cringe potential, but if we disallow that, where does that end? No one allowed to play a different ethnic group PC? No one allowed to play different gendered PC? It's not the same as whitewashed casting in movies, where there are actors of the right checkboxes that could be hired. It's a game that's completely about playing a role that's not you. As long you're not playing into harmful stereotypes, I say play whoever you want to play.

It’s not stopping able-bodied people playing disabled characters, it’s the “I am so amazing for including this in my game” virtue signalling people were doing whilst simultaneously ignoring and dismissing actual disabled people’s opinions.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote: Worst thing they’ve done? Defined the Dark Powers.

And explicitly stated that Strahd made a pact with them.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:It’s not stopping able-bodied people playing disabled characters, it’s the “I am so amazing for including this in my game” virtue signalling people were doing whilst simultaneously ignoring and dismissing actual disabled people’s opinions.

Agreed there. The dismissing of actual disabled people's opinions isn't right. Though I hope I won't be tarred with the same brush by pointing out that the author of the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" is an actual wheelchair user, so without negating that vet's views, it's true that not all disabled people feel the same way about it.

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:It’s not stopping able-bodied people playing disabled characters, it’s the “I am so amazing for including this in my game” virtue signalling people were doing whilst simultaneously ignoring and dismissing actual disabled people’s opinions.

Agreed there. The dismissing of actual disabled people's opinions isn't right. Though I hope I won't be tarred with the same brush by pointing out that the author of the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" is an actual wheelchair user, so without negating that vet's views, it's true that not all disabled people feel the same way about it.

I know that. I mentioned her earlier

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:As an aside, why is it “you can handle X but not black/gay/other in a game. It’s fantasy, anything can exist!” is spouted by the same people who get angry when you tell them adventurers in a wheelchair don’t make sense when healing magic exists?

Magical healing exists. But a regenerate is a 7th-level spell. Not going to be many casters able to do that. Assuming it can heal spinal injuries.

IMHO, people with disabilities in the game are fine so long as it's not presented in a way where they can offset the hinderances that come with their disability while retaining all the benefits.
The archetypal example is the Daredevil. The blind person who isn't really blind. That's an awesome character concept that's in a bunch of movies and fiction. But it's problematic in the game when you have a character that doesn't have penalties for not being able to see while also being immune to medusas, visual illusions, darkness effects, and the like.

An adventurer in a wheelchair is fine. It'd be awesome in Eberron (or even Wildemount) where you could justify a magic wheelchair or personal flying carpet. Or even Dragonlance with a tinkerer gnome exoskeleton. And it's not even bad in Ravenloft, with an old style Victorian wheelchair.
BUT
It's a character concept. And like any other character concept, it needs to be run by the DM. Just like if playing a campaign in a humanocentric world with a player wanting to bring in a dragonborn. Or a serious courtly drama game and a silly character.
If the DM says "sure, this is a Mordent focused investigation campaign with lots of haunted houses and urban adventures" then go ahead. But the DM also needs to be able to say "well, we're running Curse of Strahd and there are a LOT of stairs. Some climbing and jumping. Let's save the character in the wheelchair for next campaign."

Jester of the FoS wrote:If the DM says "sure, this is a Mordent focused investigation campaign with lots of haunted houses and urban adventures" then go ahead. But the DM also needs to be able to say "well, we're running Curse of Strahd and there are a LOT of stairs. Some climbing and jumping. Let's save the character in the wheelchair for next campaign."

Lots of haunted houses with elevators that is...
Not been able to play an adventure (CoS in this case) because a player chose the wrong attributes for his PC... IS a problem.

Leliel wrote:I somehow doubt a detective is going to be that concerned with where his wheels can go in the Crypt. He's more interested in the solving of murders that involve the undead coming out of it, other people handle the arrests/slaying.

Acually I believe exaclty the opposite... concerned if a character fits in a crypt, being able to flee from a swamp, do whatever in a scenario where there is a possibility that all of his fellow PC's may die and be stranded in a puddle of tar, plus many more are matters of survival. It is necessary for a person to feel safe that they can handle things on their own.

And I wasn't talking about the new version of Alanik but of PC's on wheelchairs, I posted a video in the previous page that shows how difficult is for someone on a wheelchair to climb a mountain, sometimes living in a city may be as hard, with people parking anywhere they want, blocking passage, non-existing pavements or having pavements with obstacles (trees, a traffick lights etc) many cities in non 1st world countries (like my own) haven''t solved all these problems, I remember being in a backward town (somewhere) where there was a sign that read in that countries language "No parking is allowed for cripples" and this is the actual translation, it didn't write person with disability and most importantly, if you were one you couldn't park there .

So even in the case of the Great Detective what happens when he has to investigate? Solving murders means that he has to investigate and probably visit dangerous places.

Unless if we begin discriminating adventures...
If a player wants to paly a person with a disability then that PC should be able to do what all adventurer's do, if they can't maybe adventuring isn't exactly what is best for them and their party.

That's why they are called disabilities.

Ranger PC with disability: Quick Thormadon! hold my chair in a wheelie so that I can shoot those bats with my longbow!
Thormadon: I can't! If I do that I will not have free hands to be able to cast spells...
Ranger PC with disability: Can't you use a verbal spell?

You know, I'm getting worried that in focusing too much on Alanik and his wheelchair, we're missing the opportunity to talk about other important things in the new book.

Things like this

Dr. Frantisek Markov is a genius – but less so than yesterday. His Markov Formula grants him unparalleled intellect, but it insidiously steals more than it gives, making him increasingly dull-witted and bestial in form. Despairing, the doctor fled to a tropical island he dubbed Markovia, where he tests new versions of his formula on the local fauna in hopes of recovering his waning genius. As a result of these tests, animals across Markovia now possess sapience and have been deluded into believing Markov is their god.

or this

The Nightmare Court’s members share one commonality: all are the living nightmares of Caroline Dinwiddy, a potent psychic who repressed memories of her own heartless deeds. Those memories torment her sleeping mind, creating the Nightmare Court. Deep within the City of Nod, inside a warped reimagining of the clinic where she once worked, Dinwiddy sleeps without waking, refusing to face the terrors her dreams unleash upon innocents across the multiverse.

or even this

The Risibilos is a small music hall, similar to those found in any decent-sized city. Its lord, Doerdon, was once a king, one so thoroughly humorless that he forbade his subjects the privilege of laughter upon pain of death. He is now cursed to entertain others, a task he is utterly unqualified for. Fortunately, the Mists delivered him a partner, a ventriloquist’s dummy carved in the likeness of Strahd von Zarovich. The eerie dummy has a mind of its own, insisting that it is the real Strahd and that the creature currently sitting upon the throne of Castle Ravenloft is a mere impostor. It rages at the audience and makes audacious promises to any who will help it regain its station. This is hilarious to anyone with the slightest inkling of who Strahd is, and their peals of laughter are agony to Doerdon’s ears.

Mephisto wrote:

Jester of the FoS wrote:If the DM says "sure, this is a Mordent focused investigation campaign with lots of haunted houses and urban adventures" then go ahead. But the DM also needs to be able to say "well, we're running Curse of Strahd and there are a LOT of stairs. Some climbing and jumping. Let's save the character in the wheelchair for next campaign."

Lots of haunted houses with elevators that is...
Not been able to play an adventure (CoS in this case) because a player chose the wrong attributes for his PC... IS a problem.

It's like any other character concept. If the DM knows that's the concept the player has their heart set on, they try to plan the adventures to let it work and make the times it doesn't the exception.

Just like a player who wants to play a mounted fighter and bring his horse on adventures will be equally disappointed.

If running a prewritten adventure, yeah the DM should advise against it. In a homebrew game, there's no reason why not so long as the concept is thematically appropriate.

Igor the Henchman is right that talking about this is maybe too much (even though I wasn't talking only about Alanik Ray's wheelchair), so I ll just say this last things for me in this matter.

Jester of the FoS wrote:Just like a player who wants to play a mounted fighter and bring his horse on adventures will be equally disappointed.

A mounted fighter can still get off his horse and walk somewhere were mounts are not acceptable or accessible (a mansion, a tavern, a well) a person who has a disability to walk on his/her own, needs help to climb a mountain, a staircase, enter a swamp. A mounted fighter would have a disability if a curse had glued him on his horse or if he was a centaur or a nuckelavee.

Jester of the FoS wrote:If running a prewritten adventure, yeah the DM should advise against it. In a homebrew game, there's no reason why not so long as the concept is thematically appropriate.

Well for me in any adventure especially those involving traveling, but even with cities not being built with respect to people with disabilities, to have such a starting character is too "non-realistic". It is like the fantasy world and in this situation Ravenloft, the Demiplane of Dread itself, being considerate and having everything (including rural areas, mountaintops, crypts and dungeons) being built with respect to accomodate people with disabilities. In other words a contemporary real world view of how to built cities buildings etc.

If these views of easy accessibility are applied to natural areas they are usually called destruction of natural habitat etc.
Recenlty to have easy access for more tourists and people with disabilities the Acropolis rock was cemented, ruining the whole complex (off course the access for people with disabilities could be made with a more friendly material than cement).

In the real world accessibility for the people with disabilities begun to be applied everywhere only in 1st world countries after the middle of the 20th century, after millenia of neglect. I understand the reason that some people believe it is good to have this view on their game, to make people with disabilities feel acceptable. This in my opinion is a problem since it is kind of based on the notion that people with disabilities are different and should feel accepted. People should not be or feel accepted because of their disabilities (or any other perceived difference) but because they just are, based on their character and the character of the people they interact with. If someone is an as---le, it doesn't matter if they have a disability or not, they just are, and I wouldn't want them in my game because of that reason, not any other.

Personally my view of the setting is closer to a "historically realistic" low fantasy world, so yes people with disabilities do exist but adventurer's with disabilities from character creation, is a no But on the other hand since I am a fan of the Specific Injury Critical Hit System from the 1995 2nd edition Player's Option: Combat & Tactics (it goes from character's being grazed to being maimed or even having their head being severed. So PC's can still acquire a disability after a fierce attack during the game, so also go through the shock of their characters being unable to do something they could before. Naturally after surviving such an injury the PC would usually try to find a miracle worker, relic or make a dark pact to be cured of their disability.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:This Reddit post describes the metaplot of 5e Ravenloft.

Worst thing they’ve done? Defined the Dark Powers.

Ehh...

There's another post in the comments section with more detailed spoilers, and as it turns out, before all that, there's a section: "DMs, what the Dark Powers are is up to you, but here's some ideas."

Osybus explicitly being one sounds like a case of "right hand doesn't know what left is doing", and the deal was made with Osybus, specifically- it's literally one line that says he is one, that could have slipped past editors. It could be that his Priests think he's a Dark Power, but really, he's just a vestige.

I am a little skeptical of them being more active, going by the amber sarcophagi, but it's hardly a deal breaker. They just seem more malevolent this edition, but also less willing to condemn people at a roll of the dice. I'm also thinking that given how they seem to be willing to grant heroes Dark Gifts, they come off as experimenters here. Besides, I'm a bit less willing to treat entities that go "eh, collateral damage" to pocket universes they made as torture chambers as anything but some kind of Evil these days anyway, so I consider this an err on the side of common sense.

Mephisto wrote:PS
I have created since last year a villain on a wheelchair for this years QtR but it is more as a disguise than out of necessity, inspired by Uxia from the movie Dagon (2001), she has tentacles instead of legs.

Coincidentally, with the return of Ciphramir from QtR 26, there will be two wheelchair-using individuals this year. He doesn't have tentacle legs, but he also doesn't need his wheelchair. (At least, he hasn't needed it for a long time...)

Mephisto wrote:In the real world accessibility for the people with disabilities begun to be applied everywhere only in 1st world countries after the middle of the 20th century, after millenia of neglect. I understand the reason that some people believe it is good to have this view on their game, to make people with disabilities feel acceptable. This in my opinion is a problem since it is kind of based on the notion that people with disabilities are different and should feel accepted. People should not be or feel accepted because of their disabilities (or any other perceived difference) but because they just are, based on their character and the character of the people they interact with. If someone is an as---le, it doesn't matter if they have a disability or not, they just are, and I wouldn't want them in my game because of that reason, not any other.

Personally my view of the setting is closer to a "historically realistic" low fantasy world, so yes people with disabilities do exist but adventurer's with disabilities from character creation, is a no But on the other hand since I am a fan of the Specific Injury Critical Hit System from the 1995 2nd edition Player's Option: Combat & Tactics (it goes from character's being grazed to being maimed or even having their head being severed. So PC's can still acquire a disability after a fierce attack during the game, so also go through the shock of their characters being unable to do something they could before. Naturally after surviving such an injury the PC would usually try to find a miracle worker, relic or make a dark pact to be cured of their disability.

We make all kinds of concessions to accommodate players in the game.
Magic exists. There are elves. People don't need to eat balanced diets, exercise, or use the restroom. Wounds don't fester and become infected. Caves have even flooring and all the passages and crevasse can accommodate a full grown human.

If a player's fun is dependant on them being a heroic version of themselves why not allow them to have a wheelchair? Why tell someone they're playing the game wrong?
My imagination is not so lacking that I can only make dungeons with steep spiral staircases, pit traps, and steep cliffs. If I needed to, I could write adventures that mostly accommodate a PC in a wheelchair.
Because while I want internal consistency in the setting, it is still a game and I want everyone participating to have fun.

Plus, the '90s reboot of Ghostbusters had one of the main characters in a wheelchair and it never slowed him down.
If the writers of a show called "Extreme Ghostbusters" can make a handicapable hero work what excuse do I have?

"Magical healing exists. But a regenerate is a 7th-level spell. Not going to be many casters able to do that. Assuming it can heal spinal injuries."

Furthermore, Curses can counter powerful healing magic and are epidemic in Ravenloft. I'd hate to see this as a failed powers check but the DPs have ways of punishing those within their purview. The point is, this s not impossible to include even under current rules. It might need to be done carefully, but it can be done. This is another case of 'How well did the writers do this?' People with commonplace physical and mental challenges can exist in Raenloft moreso than other settings for the reasons I just stated.

What's more, before more modern times, there were all kinds of interesting archaic ways people with challenges of this kind to deal with them. Two movies come to mind. One was 'Lady Chatterly's Lover' Lady Chatterly is married to a lord who was paralyzed from the waste down and has this combination wheelchair/dragster that allows him to race around his estate. The other was 'The King's Whore' with Timothy Dalton as the king. He winds up paralyzed at the end and is placed inside this huge box that moves him around like marionette. Most artificial limbs were homemade in those days. Standardization didn't come around even in America until after the Civil War. Remember also that widespread blindness and deafness caused by disease led to the creation of American Sign Language and Braille. Steampunk flavor anyone?

Manofevil wrote:This is another case of 'How well did the writers do this?'

They did it barely at all, really. There's a short sentence about Alanik's legs being paralyzed after he once fell off a roof. That's it. It's quite remarkable that a short sentence and one illustration have generated two pages of discussion.

Jester of the FoS wrote:If a player's fun is dependant on them being a heroic version of themselves why not allow them to have a wheelchair? Why tell someone they're playing the game wrong?

If that was the case, I wouldn't object.

Igor the Henchman wrote:There's a short sentence about Alanik's legs being paralyzed after he once fell off a roof. That's it. It's quite remarkable that a short sentence and one illustration have generated two pages of discussion.

The devil is in the details