Café de Nuit

alhoon wrote:"Attack actions involve a “to hit” roll against any and all targets, so a power that targets all enemies within 1 square requires a
separate attack roll against each enemy affected."

Yeah... but how often are more than one target going to be in a single square?

alhoon wrote:I thought the main reason to remove the saves was so that you could roll once for the power of the fireball and check to see which Reflex you beat!

No, it was to remove having the target make the roll to see if your attack had any effect.
And removing the overlap between ranged attack, ranged touch attack and reflex save.

alhoon wrote:"Some powers (like some cleric prayers) will also heal you your healing surge value, and you’ll tick off your healing surges for them as well."
You tick off healing surges from healing prayers?! Very funny. I hope there are some cleric powers that restore healing surges, or the low AC guys will get the shaft!

You can heal yourself with a healing surge, but you can only do it once an encounter. But you also have a tonn of extras that are "unlocked" by clerics and other leaders. Look at the preview characters, they have like 9 surges a day. That's a lot of encounters.
clicky
This is a four-fold reason:
1) Remove randomness. Nothing worse than the wizard down 4hp getting healed for 12 when the lvl 6 cleric rolls a "6" while the fighter down 15hp only gets healed for 7 when the cleric rolls a "1".
2) More healing. Classes get a set surge amount + con = larger surge for the people with more hp. So the classes that get hit more have more surges for larger amounts.
3) Character-based cap on healing. So you don't just focus on healing a single character over and over; they eventually run out of surges. Other characters can take over as meat shield or you can rest. Opposed to 3e where a character can be healed until the cleric runs out of spells.
4) Less work for the cleric. He fires off the surge and everyone takes care of their own bookkeeping. And a cleric can do other things than just heal people.

alhoon wrote:"An extended rest is akin to “camping” and lasts 6 hours. After an extended rest, you’re fully healed, you have a full compliment of healing surges, you have your daily powers back, and you reset your action points to 1. "
Too much neverwinter in there.
That's certainly something I'll rule out as soon as I have my hands on the book.

But once you hit level 6 or 7 a party with a solid healer or two can pretty much do this anyway, especially if they spend two days resting.

Reviews of 4E part 1 & 2

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35799

alhoon wrote: Other problem: "Some powers (like some cleric prayers) will also heal you your healing surge value, and you’ll tick off your healing surges for them as well."
You tick off healing surges from healing prayers?! Very funny. I hope there are some cleric powers that restore healing surges, or the low AC guys will get the shaft!

Well there's one bright side to that - no more jumping through hoops to pull off your NPC's dramatic "last dying words" without having the cleric ruin the whole thing by casting a cantrip. Once they're out of healing surges, they're gone.

Why isn't the preview characters in the facts about 4th edition thread?

And no, losing a healing surge for being healed by the cleric still sounds foolish to me.

Also:

The cleric heals miracously the characters. Why shouldn't he be able to heal the same character over and over?
And yes, I think it's better and more realistic by far to spend two days under ministrations of a solid healer than spend 6 hours sleeping and off on you feat, healthy as if nothing happened. At least, the two days with the cleric casting healing spells on the party were more realistic.
Heck, I even found the 1hp/lvl too much!
No, that will change in my 4th edition. Full rest will just reset action points and refill your healing surges. Use them to heal.

NOTE I was right! The ability scores give the same modifiers as in the 3rd!
Anyway, where can we see some bigger pictures? I can't make all the letters in the back.

Here're the PDF's for the 4E sample characters.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Experi ... acters.zip

Note that they're for Living Forgotten Realms. So Tymora and Amaunator aren't core deities (Although it's pretty neat seeing Amaunator returning).

JinnTolser wrote:Just saw the new preview about rogues. They can only sneak attack now with light blades, crossbows, and slings? WTF?

I guess my Paladin/Rogue will never be able to Sneak Attack an enemy with his Bastard Sword, again.

Of course... we're also only see the uber-simplified healing and game rules for 1st level.

Jester of the FoS wrote:Rogues can only use: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword

Even better: you want to defend the king? Arrest everyone using daggers and short swords, they're rogues.

alhoon wrote:Why isn't the preview characters in the facts about 4th edition thread?

D'oh! Just plain didn't see them; sorry, guys.

And no, losing a healing surge for being healed by the cleric still sounds foolish to me.

It seems like they wanted to counterbalance the easier availability of healing, by limiting your cures received per day. Use of "healing surges" may be their way of making the number of hp regained vary in proportion to the recipient's level, not the caster's; that way, healing a 200 hp fighter and a 10 hp wizard who are each at half hit points can take the same number of prayers.

It seems like every time they reinvent the game, the designers try to plug whatever continuity-gaffs people had quibbled over in the previous edition. Can't say if I like this "fix" or not, but we'll have to see how it works in play.

The cleric heals miracously the characters. Why shouldn't he be able to heal the same character over and over?

Maybe because he can only channel divine power so many times for a given purpose? If I were a deity, and the person my cleric was healing seemed to be taking my "miracles" for granted, by immediately going out to squander those hard-healed hp all over again, I might be reluctant to keep on handing out the freebies, too...

NOTE I was right! The ability scores give the same modifiers as in the 3rd!

That's because they're all 1st level characters. I'd posted about this earlier: ability modifiers in 4E are equal to what they were in 3E, plus one-half your character level.

I wonder if that means the ability-score bumps every fourth character level are gone?

Sorti wrote:

Jester of the FoS wrote:Rogues can only use: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword

Even better: you want to defend the king? Arrest everyone using daggers and short swords, they're rogues.

And no sap listed, either. So much for bloodlessly infiltrating the mansion during a robbery...

Maybe they just assumed that 'sap' fit under 'club' as 'low damage blunt object for knocking suckers out'?

I mean, it's like going, "Thievery forces us to be thieves, even if plenty of other professions use slight of hand! It's called thievery!"; there's a point in there, but it's ultimately, "I don't like the name of this thing.", unless you have a jerk DM who's anal about intepriting things.

Rogues use also rapier in 3rd and 3.5, I always get that when I play rogue.

Rotipher of the FoS wrote: Maybe because he can only channel divine power so many times for a given purpose? If I were a deity, and the person my cleric was healing seemed to be taking my "miracles" for granted, by immediately going out to squander those hard-healed hp all over again, I might be reluctant to keep on handing out the freebies, too...

OK, but if the deity was a healer deity not caring at all who takes healing for granted? And on the other hand if the deity hated wizards for example?
If we bring deity personalities in this then we are in for a loooong haul.
Also I'm not sure if the 1d6+wisdom modifier will work even if you have no healing surge left.

But I agree that the healing needed reworking as to heal the 15th lvl fighter and the 2nd level wizard with about the same amount of prayers.
Cure light wounds: 1d8+5 hp ... Hey, I have 6 hp in total! 10 hp is not a light wound for me!
Cure serious wounds: 3d8+10 hp ... Hey, I have 160 hp. 25 hp is not a serious wound for me!

I don't understand why it had to take a healing surge! Give one for free!
NOTE: Of course if there is a spell like "Rejuvanation: 1/day. You replentist 1 healing surge on 1 target. 6th-10th 2 healing surges. 11th-20 4 healing surges. 21+ You replentish all healing surges"
Then it will be a very nice system.

NOTE2: The paladin spends one of his own healing surges to heal someone with lay on hands (and he has a load of them), but noooo... the cleric spends the target's healing surges.

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:
That's because they're all 1st level characters. I'd posted about this earlier: ability modifiers in 4E are equal to what they were in 3E, plus one-half your character level.

I don't think so. I think you get +1/2 your level in all skill checks, save defences, ability checks, hit/damage rolls etc. From the pit fiend I also think you get a +1/2 to initiative.

Jester of the FoS wrote:

alhoon wrote:I thought the main reason to remove the saves was so that you could roll once for the power of the fireball and check to see which Reflex you beat!

No, it was to remove having the target make the roll to see if your attack had any effect.
And removing the overlap between ranged attack, ranged touch attack and reflex save.

I respectfully disagree. The main reason it was to avoid situations like Widened fireball. 17 targets. Go roll 17 saves.

About the preview characters:
Wizard:
- Sleep seems too complicated. The targets are slowed. Then the next round they roll a save. If they pass the save they're OK. If they fail the save they fall unconsious until they manage to get the save... so each round you have to roll saves and remember who's slowed, who's taking a nap and who has shaked off the spell.
Considering the power of the melf's acid arrow, sleeps seems underpowered. And since it takes a couple of rounds for the target(s) to wake you can't use it to sneak in a house etc.

- Magic missile: BLASPHEMY! After 25 or more years the magic missile may miss!
House rule: Rename the blasphemous spell to "magic bolt". Include an encounter use spell named magic missile that hits unerringly and does 1d8+int mod damage +the upgrades at the right levels.

- Mage hand: Wow! That's a really nift spell now! Except that you can call and dismiss it at a whim, it helps moving things to and from your backpack etc as a minor action.
Example: You bring the potion to your hand and send the wand you holded to its sheath in a single minor action instead with two.

- Scorching burst: A fire burst at first level!!! Wait... just 1 square? So you can use it on swarms, or two hit that guy carrying that halfling etc bust most of the time you hit a single target. Also too little damage and if it misses it doesn't deal damage.
I understand why a "at will" first level burst would suck but just for once, just this time could we had a bit of unbalance? Would it be too much to have 2 squares burst at will? Yes, at will!
"Get that! And that! And that! And that! More of you? That! And that! And that!"

question: Everyone seems to get 2 at will, 1 per encounter and 1 per day power. The wizard from class gains cantrips (understandable) from race an extra per encounter... but gets 2 daily powers to pick from. The class write-up says it's because of the spellbook.
So a wizard doesn't seem to have an alotment of spells like a sorcerer has but a spellbook and he picks which powers he prepares.
I.e you can use as many powers as the other starting chars, but you have a larger list to pick from.