Café de Nuit

I edited the post.

The formula for gunpowder is pretty simple.

The materials are also fairly basic. Charcoal is probably available across the Core. You just need woodlots and charcoal burners. Saltpetre can be mined from bat-caves. It can also be made in niter-beds. That takes more know-how- but the basic materials are easy to get: dung, urine, woodash,etc. On Earth, sulfur is fairly common. It might be much less common in Ravenloft, of course.

I go with the 'smokepowder' solution. Gunpowder IMC is a semi-magical substance. The alchemy skill is required to make that stuff- and this includes the standard 3.5 requirement that the alchemist be some sort of spellcaster.
That cuts down on the availabity of gunpowder.

IMC, Core domains with low CLs are usually places with poorly developed economies, low literacy rates, and so on. These places also tend to have fewer casters than higher CL domains.

Lamordia is a freakish exception.

IMC, besides the problems you presented, the fairly simple recipy for gunpowder is a guarded secret.
Greek fire was also fairly simple recipy but it was never revealed. Certainly gunpowder isn't as great a secret but it's not well known.

As for the magic and gunpowder... Yeah, I've thought of that too, but I can't say I like it. I want a Mordentish in Barovia to be able to create gunpowder without need of magic.

alhoon wrote:IMC, besides the problems you presented, the fairly simple recipy for gunpowder is a guarded secret.
Greek fire was also fairly simple recipy but it was never revealed. Certainly gunpowder isn't as great a secret but it's not well known.

As for the magic and gunpowder... Yeah, I've thought of that too, but I can't say I like it. I want a Mordentish in Barovia to be able to create gunpowder without need of magic.

Who knows the secret? Just one group?

alhoon wrote:IMC, besides the problems you presented, the fairly simple recipy for gunpowder is a guarded secret.
Greek fire was also fairly simple recipy but it was never revealed. Certainly gunpowder isn't as great a secret but it's not well known.

As for the magic and gunpowder... Yeah, I've thought of that too, but I can't say I like it. I want a Mordentish in Barovia to be able to create gunpowder without need of magic.

If the formula for Greek Fire was never revealed...how do you know it was simple?

Because they have reproduced two formulas that work like Greek fire did with the means Byzantine empire had.

alhoon wrote:Because they have reproduced two formulas that work like Greek fire did with the means Byzantine empire had.

That doesn't necessarilly mean that those formulas are the correct ones, though. It certainly does suggest that, but it's not definite without an actual document showing the old formula.

Aren't you forgetting something else? One power trying to keep a secret is a helluva lot easier than a bunch of seperate powers, individuals, and groups trying to prevent the further diffusion of an idea or technique. How many persons of how many different domains know how to make gunpowder IYC?

I could see it remaining a secret if only one group knew how to make it.

YMMV, of course


TYour menyion of gnomes made me think- wouldn't it be interesting if gnomes held a monopoly on powder manufacture?

Well... they don't. Perhaps I'll give that a try in a campaign in the future.

I agree that a single group holding the secret would be possible and that "a couple of groups per gunpowder domain" (that's what I use) is next to "whoever can get someone drunk in a tavern and write it down".
More or less there are the gnomes of Mayvin in Darkon (that use alchemy to make it = spellcasters, different recipy, cleaner gunpowder), A really secretive group in Richemulot that goes so far as to assassinate people that they think are spying on them (7-8 people know the recipy, the rest carry materials or make them, some are faux materials that aren't used), 2 rivaling groups in Borca, an extended family in Lamordia and Dementlieu (these are talkers unfortunatelly) ... and I'm pretty sure I forget some. 8-9 groups more or less with a total of 150-200 people that know the recipy.
Invidia is one of the gunpowder domains that doesn't actually have anyone that knows how to make gunpowder.

As I said, I make a realism gap there filling it with DP and "we don't need Gunpowder" crap for why the secret is a secret.

No more than 200 people in all the Core, eh?

IMC, the basic ingredients are not a secret. Some aspects of the process are unkown to the general public- but that's typical of alchemical matters. The real difficulty is that craft: alchemy requires a spellcaster, and spellcasters are rare in most places.

IMC, any gnome able to use his race's spell-like abilities counts as a spellcaster for purposes of using craft: alchemy.

Characters who have learned to cast cantrips also qualify.
I allow this feat:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cantrip_(DnD_Feat)

The link leads to a "sorry empty page" thing.
But from the title I suspect it's a feat that allows *gasp* casting of cantrips. Do gnomes still get a +2 alchemy in 3.5? In my D&D version (Ravenloft or not), I allow all of them to have the alchemy skill with that racial +2 anyways.

How about a feat that allows you not cast cantrips but take the craft alchemy skill as a class skill and also gives a +2 competence bonus? That way it could make alchemy a secret tied with magic but also open up after special training for those without magical abilities (In my Ravenloft campaign not everyone can become a spellcaster. Characters happen to be in the 1% that could with training become spellcasters).

ewancummins wrote:No more than 200 people in all the Core, eh?

"All the core" IMC is 2 million people, most of them farmers or laborers.
1% are nobles and scholars are at most another 2%. Many of those 3% are poets, sit in their villas and go riding etc etc and couldn't care less to know how gunpowder is made, let alone risking another knife in the back.
More or less 200 people is what I boiled it down to "whoever has the interest to learn how to make it, ready to spend some money and take some risks".

alhoon wrote:"All the core" IMC is 2 million people, most of them farmers or laborers.
1% are nobles and scholars are at most another 2%. Many of those 3% are poets, sit in their villas and go riding etc etc and couldn't care less to know how gunpowder is made, let alone risking another knife in the back.
More or less 200 people is what I boiled it down to "whoever has the interest to learn how to make it, ready to spend some money and take some risks".

It's more like 2.5 million in my campaign.


IMC, the ingredients are not a secret. There's no way that they could remain hidden. The formula for gunpowder has been printed in books. Alchemists buy ingredients on the open market. Some countries have operational powder mills.

It's not just a matter of knowledge. As with any use of craft: alchemy to make 'special' items/materials, magical ability is a must ( Lamordia is an exception to the usual rules on alchemy).

The number of trained alchemists varies by domain, of course.

Arkandale has a fairly large number of 'hexmen' able to use lesser magic- and many of these folks are also trained in practical alchemy. There are some farmers in Arkandale who are able to make their own gunpowder. Gunpowder is fairly common and not very expensive.

In Nova Vaasa, alchemy is under the strict control of the Church of the Lawgiver. Underground alchemists risk dreadful punishment. Gunpowder is scarce and expensive.

Note that NPC class spellcasters, like adepts and gleaners, are more common than 'PC' class spellcasters, IMC.

Gleaners? What are those?

alhoon wrote:Gleaners? What are those?

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJ ... x1NJw.html

IMO adepts could fill that role quite well.

As for NPC class spellcasters IMC I do the following:
Adepts have a spell list only from the cleric and druid class (and can later trade their levels for one of these classes).
Another NPC class (called magic user) that has access to the sorcerer spell list with fewer spells/day and slower progression that can later trade levels for sorcerer class.

I've changed adepts and I ruled that their caster level increases more slowly. A 5th lvl adept has caster lvl 3 for example so a bless from him would last 3 minutes etc. The same applies to magic users.

alhoon wrote:IMO adepts could fill that role quite well.

As for NPC class spellcasters IMC I do the following:
Adepts have a spell list only from the cleric and druid class (and can later trade their levels for one of these classes).
Another NPC class (called magic user) that has access to the sorcerer spell list with fewer spells/day and slower progression that can later trade levels for sorcerer class.

I've changed adepts and I ruled that their caster level increases more slowly. A 5th lvl adept has caster lvl 3 for example so a bless from him would last 3 minutes etc. The same applies to magic users.

Interesting stuff, Alhoon.

In my mind, 'magic -user' is another word for 'wizard class.' That comes from playing Basic D&D.