Café de Nuit

Pun-Pun is awesome. Weird name, but a sterling example of the system's design quirks.

Well, after all this interesting debate, I still haven't seen a serious attempt to meet my challenge. Yes, Gwydion is an option, and also the God Brain, and certainly Vecna if you kept him around; Azalin alone is not suffiecient, though with all his resources, Kargat etc., he might defeat them. But I want something more creative! Not just finding the most powerful DLs and throwing them to the arena! The theme of Ravebloft is not about raw power and magical might, but about conspiracies, genius plots, and of course horror! See me how can those motives win over the FR characters!

Jack the Reaper wrote:Well, after all this interesting debate, I still haven't seen a serious attempt to meet my challenge. Yes, Gwydion is an option, and also the God Brain, and certainly Vecna if you kept him around; Azalin alone is not suffiecient, though with all his resources, Kargat etc., he might defeat them. But I want something more creative! Not just finding the most powerful DLs and throwing them to the arena! The theme of Ravebloft is not about raw power and magical might, but about conspiracies, genius plots, and of course horror! See me how can those motives win over the FR characters!

I will grant that it is wanting in originality, but the Gentleman Caller has, arguably, already tried to get that portal in the Shadow Rift open, and now that the Shadow Fey know what is waiting on the otherside of the door, he can expect the staunches resistence from them to any further attempts. So who could conceivably withstand the fury of the Shadow Fey, once they discover what is afoot, manage to open the door, want to open the door, and not be completely mad for wanting to open the door? Well, an extremely powerful individual, desperate to leave, who actually thinks he has a good chance of besting Gwydion. Sounds like Elminster to me.

Now in this scenario, Elminster and the Gentlman Caller need each other, but certainly need not like each other let alone genuinely trust each other.

The Dark Powers have an interest as Elminster is willing to run the risk of unleashing the ultimate terror as the price of gaining his liberty, even if he plans to take on and kill that terror in the process.

Isolde can be part of the story too. Is she secretly in league with Elminster, in a plot to capture the Gentleman Caller or put him into the tender clutches of the Shadow Fey, even as the portal is in fact left unopened? Or is she working against Elminster, who is ready to run too high a risk to escape, potentially freeing both the Gentleman Caller and Gwydion?

An additional player is Sytix (?), the Night Hag from Martira Bay. She conceivably knows more about planar geometry than anyone alive or dead in Ravenloft (and perhaps as an unwitting agent of Azalin) is the third peace of the puzzle necessary to exploit the portal, perhaps without even freeing Gwydion (or so she claims).

So Elminster has a choice, treat with a Night Hag, an Inccubus, and run the risk of being destroyed by and setting lose an archfiend of shadows, as the price of his liberty, or secretly renounce that liberty, at least for the time being, in a plot to be the undoing of his co-conspirators.

A party can be mixed up in this easily. They can be recruited to gather up the regalia needed for the portal. They can be recruited by the Shadow Fey to stop Elminster. They can be recruited by Isolde to do the same. They can be recruited by Azalin to learn what is afoot. They can be recruited by Inajura to the same end.

Indeed Inajura would make an excellent addition to this collection of fiends who all share a common desire with Elminster, and treating with him is most definitely not good for one's immortal soul. The Dark Powers should be rubbing their hands with glee, well save for the prospect of Gwydion getting loose and tearing further rents in their world, if not shredding it completely. A credible slice of the Time of Unparallelled Darkness, n'est-ce pas?

Depending upon one's reading of the rules concerning animal companions, the influence that the Lord of Valachan has over cats, and the degree to which he is into his wild side, I could imagine a very interesting betrayal of one dark elf by his female panther companion at some highly inopportune moment.

Jack the Reaper wrote:Well, after all this interesting debate, I still haven't seen a serious attempt to meet my challenge. ... I want something more creative! Not just finding the most powerful DLs and throwing them to the arena!

There was a thread or two like this in the old defunct Wizards boards. "Kill Elminster" was the theme. It ended poorly. Basically the most popular choice was pumping up your Diplomacy skill to huge levels and then making use of an exploit in the game design to convince Elminster to kill himself or something similar. The thread starter had a very similar reaction to you, saying that was no solution at all, but then the thread respondents shot back that Elminster is not meant to be killable because he's the author's security blanket, and thus any means they can come up with under the rules as written should count.

I could be wrong here - Ravenloft does attract many creatively devious types - but I have seen this thought experiment turn hostile once before. Or maybe that's just the Wizards boards.

HuManBing wrote:

There was a thread or two like this in the old defunct Wizards boards. "Kill Elminster" was the theme. It ended poorly. Basically the most popular choice was pumping up your Diplomacy skill to huge levels and then making use of an exploit in the game design to convince Elminster to kill himself or something similar. The thread starter had a very similar reaction to you, saying that was no solution at all, but then the thread respondents shot back that Elminster is not meant to be killable because he's the author's security blanket, and thus any means they can come up with under the rules as written should count.

The point is not to be a rules' lawyer and find some hole in the game rules. Think about it from the view point of a movie director. Forget the stats and everything, just give me a cool scenario in which a powerful wizard like Elminster (it doesn't have to be Elminster himself, he is only used as an archetype) is getting killed in Ravenloft, in a dramatic and horrifying way. Of course, slipping a skull beetle into his boot when he's asleep might do the trick; but as you said, I expect the fellows here to be more devious and creative than the FR fellows. Cure's idea goes in this direction, though it's more about an adventure involving Elminster than about killing him.

And Dion- I didn't get your point...

Chosen of Nobody-Important-in-the-Mists: I'd immediately strip Elminster of any and all abilities that he has through his connection with Mystra.

Cursed: As another poster has already mentioned, Ravenloft has curses that are not removable by simple spells, and can be very nasty....

Save vs. Darklord: Many DLs have abilities, such as border closure, that can trump more common powers/spell/etc.

Heavy Hitters: Ravenloft has its own uber-powerful villains. I don't think anyone has mentioned Arijani.

And of course....he has to sleep sometime. Just have a thief stab him in the neck with a posioned dagger. Coup de grace, sneak attack, and poison save Now, getting the thief close enough might require a little work, but surely it can be done. Remember, Elminster's allies, fun magical toys not carried on his person,etc are all irretrievably lost to him.

Jack the Reaper wrote: The point is not to be a rules' lawyer and find some hole in the game rules.

Too late, HMB already passed the bar exam...

ewancummins wrote:And of course....he has to sleep sometime.

Well if I remember right, Elminster is relieve of that burden.

Zettaijin wrote:

Jack the Reaper wrote: The point is not to be a rules' lawyer and find some hole in the game rules.

Too late, HMB already passed the bar exam...

And I was sworn in before the high court last week. There is no hope for me.

Scipion_Emilien wrote:

ewancummins wrote:And of course....he has to sleep sometime.

Well if I remember right, Elminster is relieve of that burden.

Ah, but is this power something he gets from being a Chosen of Mystra?
If so, it doesn't function in Ravenloft, at least not if I am running.

If he gets the 'no sleep' power by some other means, he might retain it. Like many whacky powers, it might be altered by Ravenloft.

Do you know what happens to someone experiencing severe sleep deprivation? It isn't pretty. Imagine the terrible waking nightmares as his centuries-old brain begins to suffer the effect of all those long years without sleep, without dreams!

Welcome to Ravenloft, Elminster. Enjoy your stay....

If you're up for an epic magical battle, the Azalin's Spell Tactics thread could give some insights as to the Darklord's tactics against Elminster. Sadly, I don't have Elminster's actual stats at hand, but I'm sure somebody must have a FR handbook somewhere to compare.

Elminster is much higher level, admittedly, but Azalin has several advantages up on him - so his general tactic may well be attrition. First, he owns all of Darkon, which means he's bound to have all host of scrolls, artifacts, and other goodies at metacarpal to throw at his enemy. Second, he's on home territory - which means even if he takes a fall in combat, he'll be back... and depending on your source, there are canonical sources to support a reading that he can instantaneously possess any corpse near his phylactery (Roots of Evil makes this a minor plot mechanic on two occasions). Granted, he doesn't recover spells while he's in his phylactery, but if he's relying on scrolls and prepared items, he won't need to.

Elminster, on the other hand, will be adrift in a strange land, without the comforting spiritual bosom of his goddess to warm his cheek [poetry], never knowing where the next attack will come from. Assuming 3.5 ed. rules, he'll never get an adequate night's rest, whereas Azalin can keep coming back in corpse after corpse with scrolls at the ready, until the pipe-smoker collapses to the ground exhausted...

Here is a link to a thread that tackles this exact same question on RPGnet forums.

Basically, the thread ping-pongs back and forth between the futile and the arbitrary.

Meredoth, with one critical piece of information, not only could do the job, but would very much like to do the job. And in fact, he wouldn't even have to cast a spell . . . .

Assume that Elminster starts to make a bit of a name for himself, cooking werewolves alive with 5 megaton fireballs and such. Meredoth has his spies investigate and realises that here is a wizard more versed in magic than even himself. Greed kicks in, he wants Elminster's spell books, and whatever else can be stripped from the wizard's frozen, lifeless remains.

Luring Elminster into paying a visit would hardly be challenging. What would be challenging in the extreme would be choosing the right day. For Meredoth must at last divine the pattern governing the no magic days and contrive to have Elminster arrive moments before one.

Whereupon Meredoth's golems and other constructs, unaffected by the magical outage, can tear Elminster limb from limb. Heck, a horde of snow serpents would suffice.