Café de Nuit

I had thought it would fit either as part of the Phantasmal Forest,
or on the East of Nidala, maybe as a pocket domain within the land.

In my own campaign, I would have been open for something outright bizarre or crazy, like having the domain exist in a bottle, or a crystal ball. (Like RJK's old Greyhawk bottle city, for example).

I think the dilemma with the Shadowlands is that Avonleigh is nearly overfed with nice material, while Nidala is relatively hard to be played btb, because it is so bare of any other attractions than just the mad blackguard.

Seriously, I wonder if anyone ever has done a complex campaign in Nidala, one that was more than a straightforward dungeon crawl in Ellena's castle. - I'd say, remove or cut down that darklord, and make the domain the habitable contrast against Avonleigh.

Glad you got interested in this, Frank! - It was in your thread, I believe that I first read about that domain, and the idea has never left me since.

I don't have the Shadowborn book in front of me ATM, but I'm pretty sure Alexi Shadowborn is male. I don't know how he is now in a crystal sarcophagus, but he's definately not Darklord material.

*****SPOILER*****








At the end of Shadowborn, Alexi discovers that he's a lodestone paladin. His service to Belenus is to slay evil beings and contain their vileness within himself. At the end he ends up containing Ebonbane within himself knowing full-well that the rest of his days would be spent in agony.
That's self-sacrificing and heroic. I'd like to think the DP's recognize that act as such- which is probably why his body is in stasis and Ebonbane is trapped instead of allowing him to possess Alexi.
Don't turn one of the best RL novel's heros into a Darklord plz: )

If you're planning to change things that much, Rafael, IMO it might be a good idea to produce not one netbook, but a pair of them. For the traditionalists, a Gaz could be compiled describing the Shadowlands, circa 761 -- the time of the Arthaus and FoS books -- that sticks with "canon" information to date. This book would use the 3.5 version of the rules, so people who enjoy the setting as Arthaus described it will have a place to turn.

At the same time, you and others who'd like to make Ravenloft more 4E-compatible could create a companion-volume on the Shadowlands of 771 (or even later? post-ToUD, maybe?) BC. In that one, you can deviate from "canon" more freely, by saying that in the intervening years Elena has forfeited her darklordship to the statue, the Castle of the Undead domain has joined the Cluster, Morgoroth is out of the picture (dead, supplanted, maybe even redeemed as he'd once hoped), etc.

DMs who like the "Future Shadowlands", but currently set their campaigns in the 760s or earlier, can arrange for history to unfold in that direction ITC, with the players' characters as witnesses. Others who don't agree with the course you've set can call it an "alternate future", or perhaps a grim prophecy which their PCs must work to avert.



Oh, and I'd be flattered to have a narrator named for me, Raf. Just don't beat her up as badly as I'd trashed Viktor (with Joel's permission, I swear!) in the NS Gaz, okay?

Archedius wrote:I don't have the Shadowborn book in front of me ATM, but I'm pretty sure Alexi Shadowborn is male. I don't know how he is now in a crystal sarcophagus, but he's definately not Darklord material.

The crystal sarcophagus is a reference to the framing fiction of the Book of Shadows.

I like your idea, Raf. I've always liked the Shadowborn cluster, and have seen it as one of the RL locales with most adventuring potential. However, I don't know if I'd like a netbook about the Shadowlands that didn't include Elena FaithHold. I know you want to make Nidala a domain that is not just about its Darklord, but you can really accomplish that by enriching it, without removing its most interesting element (Elena).

I've always wanted to turn her into the first female Death Knight ever.

Something similar with Morgoroth. I know he is pretty useless as written (There's not too much to do with him than what was already done in the Light on the Belfry adventure), but his story is wonderful, and I guess you could use that adventure as an excuse to advance the character and give him more "space".

Archedius wrote:At the end of Shadowborn, Alexi discovers that he's a lodestone paladin. His service to Belenus is to slay evil beings and contain their vileness within himself. At the end he ends up containing Ebonbane within himself knowing full-well that the rest of his days would be spent in agony.

Wow!!! That sounds pretty WoW (Lich King) to me!!!

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:If you're planning to change things that much, Rafael, IMO it might be a good idea to produce not one netbook, but a pair of them. For the traditionalists, a Gaz could be compiled describing the Shadowlands, circa 761 -- the time of the Arthaus and FoS books -- that sticks with "canon" information to date. This book would use the 3.5 version of the rules, so people who enjoy the setting as Arthaus described it will have a place to turn.

Agreed. The primary purpose of the Gazetteers is to collect all canon into a single souce, expand on the material, and reconcile contradictions. I'd rather not make any more changes than necassary (or if they're really cool like adding an extra domain to the Nocturnal Sea and changing its true darklord).

I too fall into the don't see a need to change things that greatly crowd. I think this cluster has a great base to work from. What I feel we should focus on is expanding the present information. I don't have a problem with making things up, I just want to make sure we don't get so involved with changing things we forget a majority of the fan base.

Rafael wrote: Glad you got interested in this, Frank! - It was in your thread, I believe that I first read about that domain, and the idea has never left me since.

Me neither. I really want to incorporate the info from the Endless Quest book and the background of the Bloodknife somehow into Ravenloft. But i think that having it an active domain and joined to more popular cluster or even the core would be very hard to accomplish believably. If it shoul join I would prefer to join it to some other islands/clusters/domains which also are (supposed to be) originally from Greyhawk. The Shadowlands cluster doesn't quite fit imo.

Oh and don't be too optimistic about , I probably won't be able to write anything for the netbook, all i can offer is some contributions to the discussion and maybe perhaps some statblocks. I'm nto good at writing fluff and writing crunch takes me considerable time.

One thing I try to remind myself of when I write lands or add elements that I don't like, is that while I dislike it, it's someone's favourite domain/ lord/ adventure/ monster/ NPC/ scene.

This was really my mantra for Liffe where I set out to fit ALL the pieces of Book of Crypts together, plus assorted other nods and references.

Ellena may not float your boat but someone loves her. And part of the Gaz's purpose is making a domain super-playable and full of hooks.

I have to agree with this idea. There are plenty of things that I don't like in Ravenloft, however by the same measure, other people like these things. Anytime you mess with the core concept of any area you run the risk of isolating the very people you are trying to reach.

IF you don't like Elena, no problem, find someone who does to write about her and the domain. Also remember it is often better to add to things rather than take things away.

My thoughts anyhoo

Jester of the FoS wrote:

Rotipher of the FoS wrote:If you're planning to change things that much, Rafael, IMO it might be a good idea to produce not one netbook, but a pair of them. For the traditionalists, a Gaz could be compiled describing the Shadowlands, circa 761 -- the time of the Arthaus and FoS books -- that sticks with "canon" information to date. This book would use the 3.5 version of the rules, so people who enjoy the setting as Arthaus described it will have a place to turn.

Agreed. The primary purpose of the Gazetteers is to collect all canon into a single souce, expand on the material, and reconcile contradictions. I'd rather not make any more changes than necassary (or if they're really cool like adding an extra domain to the Nocturnal Sea and changing its true darklord).

I agree, if you are going to do a Gazetteer for the Shadowborn cluster then you should stick to cannon and build up from that to flesh things out. I personally would like to see Elena and her realm kept as they are circa 761 rather than the darklord being removed or the domain changed too dramatically.

WolfKook wrote:
Wow!!! That sounds pretty WoW (Lich King) to me!!!

That's fabulous , but Warcraft's stolen ideas from so many other settings I wouldn't be suprised if they had read Shadowborn. Read the novel hard to explain how good it is. So uh yeah, thanks for comparing my favorite RL character to Blizzard's blundering attempts at background stories.

Having just used the Shadowlands in my campaign, this is something I was clamoring for for years, so that I could loot it for my Shadowlands adventure. Since no one ever did one, I ended up doing extensive research on the few existing sources, and making up a bit of stuff on my own,. So it's less useful to me personally now, but I'd still love to see it.

I would also love to contribute if I had the time, but that's doubtful. However, if it's 4e only, and the Shadowlands are radically changed, I'm afraid I don't have much interest at all. I'd much prefer to keep and expand on the canon stuff. (the Via Corona mistway, Elena, Alexi as a good guy, etc.) I don't mind adding new things, that's the point. I definitely used Mangrum's ideas in my campaign, and if you want to drop a few more darklords into the forest, I wouldn't mind, as long as they have connection to the Shadowborn story. But I think fitting into existing canon and semi-canon is a) more useful to more people, and b) more interesting than radical changes.

IMHO, the reason the place works as a cluster and not part of the core is the interconnectedness of the lords to one story. I haven't yet read my copy of Castle of the Undead, but I wouldn't mind adding that land in, IF it fits the theme, (which IMHO is the hypocrisy of evil in the guise of good), and the setting (which IMHO is less gothic, more traditional fantasy than the core). But if you did, I'd like to see some retcon of the lord history to somehow link him to the Shadowborn saga.


(I apologize if this point is more rambling than normal... not working off much sleep here.)


ETA: BTW, seeing the name Sharon pop up was especially jarring to me because my Nidala adventure centered on a priestess of Belenus named Sharon. From pure personal bias, I'd prefer if the narrator had a different name, (no offense, Rotipher), but I understand you can't fit seamlessly into every DM's campaign, and I would be loathe to try to force my own campaign into "semi-canon" with my contributions, lest I risk it becoming the next "Sheriff Potato".

Sometimes I sign on to (non-gaming) web forums as "Sharlee", since my middle name is Lee. Feel free to use that if you prefer, guys.