Café de Nuit

Maybe I got misunderstood. I am not saying you should play your game diregarding your players. Yes it is not good being the kind of DM that kills PC's for fun. throws them into situations this is impossible to get out and making their lives difficult in general just to satisfy your evil DM pleasure.
I'm saying that the style of play and the atmosphere that is created should be your responsibility and players should go with it, and not allow players to ruin your campaing because they just can't tolerate one of their characters turned into a werewolf.
I have met players in the past that treated Ravenloft to be more "goodly" than Forgotten Realms. If you are going to DM a campaing as demanding as Ravenloft, make sure you keep the style of Ravenloft intact. Players who are not mature enough to have their characters put into tough dispositions shouldn't start at all and keep to what they already know best.
I've seen DM's who offer 1st level characters with enough power to kill Strahd for Christ's sake, I've seen DM's offer their player's priest power over the dark powers. If you can't play Ravenloft, read more, understand it more, and then play it.
This is a wonderful world and I think it is for few people (that's the whole reason the campaign is out of the shelves as we speask ) but if you get the idea of Ravenloft it truly is one of the best campaign out there.
You just have to see the general picture and read between the lines of the book of what its all about.

Episkopos wrote:You should let your players know however that this isn't a goody goody save-the-princess-from-the-terrible-dragon campaign. This is Ravenloft. Most of the times, things they dont want to happen are the ones that happen. And stop thinking how the players will react. Do your game as you see fit, not the players. You play Ravenloft because you want a horror campaign, they will be pretty horified when the learn they are dead.
At least that's the best advice I can give you mate.

Episkopos wrote:I'm saying that the style of play and the atmosphere that is created should be your responsibility and players should go with it, and not allow players to ruin your campaing because they just can't tolerate one of their characters turned into a werewolf.

You misunderstood me. My players would not be upset if one of them was turned into a werewolf. In fact, this is going to happen in the next game session, and the player in question and I have been working on the scene for the last three sessions. We're really looking forwards to it.

What my players hate is not being given all the information ooc that they would have ic. If I were to slowly take them aside and tell them that they were being replaced, they would happily go along with it. Nor would it be out of the ordinary for several players to be outside the room at one go. My game sessions typically involve splitting the party into seperate rooms for about a third of the session, not just so that they can plot against each other (and they do) but also to heighten the paranoia that not all the PCs really know each other, and even when they do, they're relying on someone else's interpretation of invents. It removes all meta-knowledge from the group - they honestly don't know what they haven't themselves seen. But if I were to not let them in on things that they do know... they wouldn't enjoy it, and they'd be annoyed at the revelation, not shocked. And if the players don't enjoy the game, what the hell am I bothering for? Role-playing is not a solitary pursuit by any means.

Bloody Morgan

I agree with gonzoron and Bloody Morgan on this. Good players put a lot of work into making up characters, histories, and playing them out well. If you can trust them to play well, why not trust them enough to inform them their characters have been killed and get them to continue playing their characters, forewarned? This is THEIR character after all, not the DM's.

Players don't need to know how many others are alive or dead- that's the DM's purview. Take everyone aside; let them all keep wondering. There's enough anticipation and thrill in that. As gonzoron suggested, you're only inviting irritation and bad feeling, not surprise and horror by calling out, "Hey, your PC's actually been dead for the last three days! Surprise!"

It sounds to me like you might want to fiddle with the module's premise a bit, and perhaps with doppleganger-psychology as well. For example, if the dopplegangers who replace the PCs are under some form of mental domination, they might be compelled to THINK they're the PCs until they receive a specific signal (a la post-hypnotic suggestion). If so, you could take a to-be-replaced PC's player aside, tell them they've been hit over the head from behind and that everything goes dark.

Then, you can tell the player: "You wake up alone in a dark alley [or wherever], disoriented and hazy even as to who you are. Then, a rush of memories flood your brain: you've been attacked, your friends need you, you have to rejoin them." At no time should you refer to their PC by name from then on -- say things like "What do you do now?" instead of "What does Tordek do now?" -- as the "PC" they're playing is actually now a doppleganger ... but one that, for the moment, BELIEVES it's the player character. Only when you've replaced as many PCs as you think you can get away with, and you're ready to sic 'em on the remaining ones who haven't been replaced, does another doppleganger show up and give the signal that unravels the PC-'gangers' delusions.

Granted, you'd have to give the players some red herrings to account for so many of their PCs getting mugged (perhaps the 'gangers steal their cash or leave cryptic notes to imply the attacks have another motive), and it wouldn't work with the "cut scenes" I suggested earlier. But so long as you never actually say that the "PC" who wakes up in the dark alley is the same person as the PC who got knocked out, it might work better than out-and-out lying to your gaming group: after all, the players still have full "in-character" knowledge... just for different (and deluded) characters.

For an example of how to work a Monster-Who-Thinks-It's-A-PC situation, take a look at Terry Pratchett's "Hat Full Of Sky".

Guys, you're way off the point here. Yes I agree that keeping IC information out of players OOC is not a good idea and can be irritating. I totally agree that the whole point of playing is fun and a DM should never do something that would irritate the players in question.
But I am talking specifically for this adventure, for this scene.
The part you tell them "bad news everyone, you're dead and been replaced by doplegangers" is one and only for this addie only. In fact, this was my favourite part of the adventure. It's not good to generiliza this kind of thing to most adventure but for the sake of hour of the knife I think you should. It totally throws players off guard and frightens them. Besides they are gonna get their characters back after a while so why not confuse them for a while and let them wondering "wtf"?
Anyway, this is just my opinion as I've seen it work before with my player's group in the past. You dont have to take my word for it if you think your players would be angry with this kind of thing.

It's not really off point Episkopos. If you pull something like this, even once, you're establishing precedent. It doesn't matter whether or not you ever plan to do something similar again, your players can easily expect you to.

I thought about this a bit more last night, and what the problem really is, is that the DM is lying to the players. By omission or otherwise. Having NPCs lie to PCs is fine. Having the PC's senses lie to them due to applications of magic or insanity are fine. Having the PCs be doplegangers unaware who think they are PCs is fine. But just me lying to my players? Not acceptable. The DM is the players only source of information on the game. He or she is God. To suddenly say that the twist is that the DM didn't tell them something crucial seems... pointless. You have to be able to trust the information you are given directly by the DM, or the game falls apart.

Having said all of that, I agree with your final point. I'm not saying it's wrong if it works for you either. Just exploring what the situation would mean to me. And thread-hijacking

As a curio, what's the arifact that Sodo uses to raise the PCs?

Bloody Morgan

Bloody Morgan wrote:It's not really off point Episkopos. If you pull something like this, even once, you're establishing precedent. It doesn't matter whether or not you ever plan to do something similar again, your players can easily expect you to.

I thought about this a bit more last night, and what the problem really is, is that the DM is lying to the players. By omission or otherwise. Having NPCs lie to PCs is fine. Having the PC's senses lie to them due to applications of magic or insanity are fine. Having the PCs be doplegangers unaware who think they are PCs is fine. But just me lying to my players? Not acceptable. The DM is the players only source of information on the game. He or she is God. To suddenly say that the twist is that the DM didn't tell them something crucial seems... pointless. You have to be able to trust the information you are given directly by the DM, or the game falls apart.

Having said all of that, I agree with your final point. I'm not saying it's wrong if it works for you either. Just exploring what the situation would mean to me. And thread-hijacking

As a curio, what's the arifact that Sodo uses to raise the PCs?

Bloody Morgan

His touch. Sodo can ressurect by touch because he enjoys inflicting pain, his touch cures wounds and raises the dead.

You really should stop thinking of RPG's that much and play more for the fun of it.
I mean "lying", the DM is the only source of info?
Dude, relax, you're playing for the fun of it. This isn't the end of the world if your players dont like one scene you play.

I pulled this thing before and my players loved..it was a bit different though..the pc's were actually undead and didn't know it.

Episkopos wrote:You really should stop thinking of RPG's that much and play more for the fun of it.
I mean "lying", the DM is the only source of info?
Dude, relax, you're playing for the fun of it. This isn't the end of the world if your players dont like one scene you play.

I do play for fun, I just come off as intense But speaking as a player, having a DM go "haha, I fooled you all!" in this manner - which is what it comes across as, regardless of intent - would not be fun. Wow. The guy who gets to rewrite reality at a whim tricked us by doing so. I've had DMs pull similar tricks. Not give important information when needed and then when I take a logical action spring something I should have already known on me. There's no point to the game unless everyone, players and DM, are having fun with it.

artent wrote:I pulled this thing before and my players loved..it was a bit different though..the pc's were actually undead and didn't know it.

Requiem?

What it comes down to is individual players.
IF you think your group can handle it without giving something away then do.
IF not then don't.
And you have to trust ALL the players who will be or might be replaced otherwise it feels like a single person is being singled out.

It's not so much about the DM 'fooling' the players. I don't think any of us want or believe that. It's a module where bad players could screw it up by having their 'replaced' characters not act like themselves, even accidently or subconciously, and blow the twist.

The difference from the lack of information and this situation is, idealy, the replaced party members will act NO DIFFERENTLY than the playered they replaced. There may be some differences (like trying to be alone with unreplaced characters) but since they wouldn't know who was a doppleganger and who wasn't that situation is moot.

It does set a dangerous precident, but alot of players will accept this as it was the result of playing a published module as-is.

Episkopos wrote:

artent wrote:I pulled this thing before and my players loved..it was a bit different though..the pc's were actually undead and didn't know it.

Requiem?

custom thing based on masque