Café de Nuit

So, I've dithered on whether or not to review this product for days, but in the end, I finally mustered the courage to speak my mind in the one place online where I feel safe to do so.

I am not the typical Ravenloft fan, nor the typical D&D fan. My favorite edition is fourth, the most controversial of them all. And my relationship with Ravenloft has always been one of ambivalence, defaulting to "great idea, not very good execution" - I prefer the Dark Fantasy aesthetic to the setting, rather than its official Gothic Horror aesthetic. Keep this in mind when I say what I have to say. As for my history with the setting... I first stumbled across Ravenloft in the form of the Books of S netbooks from the Secrets of the Kargatane, and was hooked, diving deep into the 3e material and less deeply into the AD&D material.

...I actually struggled to figure out how to put this, but I finally decided to just get it over with and launch right into what would normally be mostly my closing thoughts: I don't like this book.

As a 5e version of the Heroes of Horror splat from 3rd edition, it's... underwhelming, but passable. The DM-centered mechanics are fairly in-depth, as far as 5e goes that far, and a lot less obstructive than many of the equivalent rules that Ravenloft traditionally operates under. Probably the worst offender when seen from this angle is the lackluster player's content. Now, I am glad we finally got dhampirs as Ravenloft's iconic PC race instead of half-vistani, whom I've never liked, but I don't really like the execution of either the hexblood or the reborn; I feel they could have been better. And all three races are uninspiring from a mechanical perspective, but that's par for the course with WotC's official material these days, I fear. The two subclases we get are also solid in both flavor and mechanics. But... three races and two subclasses just feels like we could have gotten so much more.

For comparison's sake, a 3rd party company called "Ghostfire Gaming" who have broken into the 5e OGL crowd with a Dark Fantasy setting called "Grim Hollow", have a player's guide that features half a dozen creative new races that include changeling-inspired constructs left behind to cover up the theft of children by the fey and fallen angels, and a whopping two dozen new subclasses - that's two for each core class! - covering archetypes from the haunted sorcerer and the blood mage to Jekyll/Hyde barbarians and warlocks sworn to elder vampires. This just makes the player content we have here look feeble by comparison.

The DM's material is also fairly functional, if a little reliant on random table generation. In particular, the analyses of the major and minor genres of horror is both familiar and new at the same time. Since at least Domains of Dread, and in the 3.0 and 3.5 Ravenloft corebooks, Ravenloft has given players and DMs a basic breakdown of the Gothic Horror genre and the Fantasy genre and how they can be put together. What Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft does that's new is admit that the Demiplane of Dread is actually broader than just "Gothic Horror", and that's actually something I can commend it for. Whilst domains have had their own unique themes since pretty much the Red Box - Bluetspur is Cosmic Horror mixed with Alien Abductions and Body Horror, Darkon is (supposed to be) Dark Fantasy, Falkovnia is War Horror, etc - this is the first iteration of the setting to actually acknowledge that fact openly and try to be broader.

That can only be to 5e's advantage. I've always felt that two of the things holding Ravenloft back were TSR's inability to accept that Ravenloft was more than Gothic Horror, and also their strange company-wide fixation with squeezing every setting they made as close to the original Greyhawkian "Low Fantasy" mold as they could get it. Darkon and Hazlan classic are perfect examples of this; they should be really weird and magical realms, and yet they're incredibly mundane if you look at stuff other than the list of native monsters.

So, yes, if this book was just trying to be Heroes of Horror for 5th edition, I would be a little underwhelmed, but overall I wouldn't have a problem with it.

...But it's not trying to be Heroes of Horror 5e. It's trying to be a Ravenloft campaign splat. And that's why I cannot forgive this book.

As I said at the start of this rant, I'm a 4e fan, which earned its hatedom in large part because it completely rewrote the lore that had been preserved and expanded upon for the past three editions. So it should be telling that my primary complaint about this book is "they changed too much and too ineptly".

3rd edition, the pinnacle of Ravenloft lore, strove to move away from the Weekends in Hell and audience participation style of AD&D Ravenloft. They fleshed out the core, did their best to make the Demiplane of Dread feel as much like a living, breathing, thriving realm as they possibly could... and this book has thrown it all away to basically go right back to the Weekend in Hell playstyle. There's a lot of complaints I have with Ravenloft as it was, I won't lie, but this book resolves none of those complaints, and if anything it makes it worse. There are some gems amidst the dross - I have never liked glorified dungeon crawl domains like Forlorn, Har'Akir or I'Cath, and the effort this book put into making Har'Akir and I'Cath deeper than they were is actually commendable. I actually really like Kalakeri, and this version of Bluetspur is a big step over the Red Box version, although I think I'd probably personally run a blend of Books of S lore and this lore for Bluetspur in my homebrewed Ravenloft. But those brief glimmers of good quality just highlight the flaws in the rest of the product.

Too many of these domains are in-name-only iterations of what they once were. Even the ones that are actually trying to relatively preserve the feel of what came before often lose a lot of nuance in the process, but most would rather make at best token references to what came before by dropping names and then just doing their own thing. Richemulot's change from a very "Swords over Lankhmar" inspired political horror to a rat-infested pestilence hellhole isn't necessarily bad, but it just didn't need to be done. I like Lamordia doubling down on its status as the Mad Science Domain, in contrast to Darkon and Hazlan as the Black Magic Domains, but Falkovnia and Dementlieu barely resemble themselves. The book is filled with so many obscure nods and lore shout-outs to things only hardcore fans will get that it just makes the obvious "phone it in" nature of the rest of the book baffling by comparison. Saidra and Vladeska and Chakuna are all solid darklords in their own right... so why not just do what they did with Ramya and give them their own domains to reign over? Literally you could just find and replace all mentions of "Dementlieu", "Falkovnia" and "Valachan" with "ReplacementName1", "ReplacementName2" and "ReplacementName3" and you'd have fully functional domains on the level of Karakeri and without the bad feelings engendered by pilfering existant names.

What's worse is the baffling priorities over allocation of space here. We get interesting ideas, like the Cyre 1313 or the island ruled by a corrupt dragon turned fake guru, but we hardly get any space dedicated to them whatsoever! This book should have been at least half again as large as it actually is!

And let's address the elephant in the room: changing genders, races and sexualities of characters isn't "progressive". It's lazy. It's literally saying "I don't trust that people will actually care about this female/non-white/sexual minority character on their own merits, so I'm going to try and piggyback on the reputation of another character". I don't care that Saidra, Vladeska or Chakuna are women; they're all solid darklords in their own right. Actually, the only female Darklord I really have a problem with is Ramya, because for the life of me I don't understand why she is the Darklord and not one or both of her asshole siblings - at best, she qualifies for the status of demilord with the three of them cursed to be struggling forever. My problem is that they were just clumsily shoved into place to fill the gaping holes after Dominic, Vlad and Kharkov were all torn out - Chakuna is actually the worst offender in that regard because her lore also messes with Kharkov's backstory, portraying him as this "Egomaniac Hunter turned Serial Killer" which, okay, is not a downgrade from "Strahd: the Blacula Edition", but at the same time isn't respecting the lore of what came before at all

This book is just... a disappointment. I don't have a lot of positivity for WotC left these days, and yet even by my low standards, this book is underwhelming. 4th edition did Ravenloft as just Islands of Terror better than this book did. Hells, given the treatment that the 4e team gave to Dark Sun, I wish there had been an official 4e Ravenloft, because I want to believe it would have been better than this! All in all, it really seems to just hit everything I have as a complaint about 5e material: it's underwhelming, it's full of "have your cake and eat it too" by claiming to appeal to nostalgia whilst at the same time just mucking with the lore however they please, and it's being eaten up by a crowd who clearly wouldn't know good taste if it broke every tooth in their mouths.

I just feel sorry for the people who were fans of the real Ravenloft. I've moved on to Grim Hollow for my Castlevania/Dark Souls/Bloodborne style Dark Fantasy fix, but I never would have wished for this... hatchet-job on the setting.

TwiceBorn Reborn wrote:Some of you good people are probably going to seethe when you see this review compilation over at ENWorld.

So there are people who really like the book and will enjoy playing weekend-in-hell-style. You know what? Good for them. If it's what they prefer, let them.
I like playing in the style encouraged by the Gazetteers and other 3e material. Other people's enjoyment of the 5e material does not detract from me loving the 3e material.
There's no need to get angry over this. Let people play the way they like, and we'll do the same. We've been creating material for each other while WotC let the setting lie fallow for years already. I doubt we'll stop now, just because we dislike the material they've finally put in print.

Rock wrote:

TwiceBorn Reborn wrote:Some of you good people are probably going to seethe when you see this review compilation over at ENWorld.

I also believe that as in music some reviews are being payed for becoming promotion publicity. It can also be somehow unintentionally as given a book for free can make some people think "Oh if I continue doing good reviews then I can get more products for free". I mean anyone can make a review, nobody swears an oath to be truthfull or anything similar to a journalist's creed.

I believe in the profession of unboxing.
I believe that the public review is a public trust; that all connected with it are, to the full measure of their responsibility, trustees for the public; that acceptance of a lesser service than the public service is betrayal of this trust.
I believe that clear thinking and clear statement, accuracy and fairness are fundamental to good reviewing.
I believe that a reviewer should write only what he holds in his heart to be true.
I believe that suppression of a review, for any consideration other than the welfare of society, is indefensible.
I believe that no one should write as a reviewer what he would not say as a gentleman; that bribery by one’s own pocketbook is as much to be avoided as bribery by the pocketbook of another; that individual responsibility may not be escaped by pleading another’s instructions or another’s dividends.
I believe that advertising, reviews and editorial columns should alike serve the best interests of readers; that a single standard of helpful truth and cleanness should prevail for all; that the supreme test of good reviewing is the measure of its public service.
I believe that the review which succeeds best — and best deserves success — fears God and honors Man; is stoutly independent, unmoved by pride of opinion or greed of power, constructive, tolerant but never careless, self-controlled, patient, always respectful of its readers but always unafraid, is quickly indignant at injustice; is unswayed by the appeal of privilege or the clamor of the mob; seeks to give every man a chance and, as far as law and honest wage and recognition of human brotherhood can make it so, an equal chance; is profoundly patriotic while sincerely promoting international good will and cementing world-comradeship; is a review of humanity, of and for today’s world.

I mean labeling VRGtR as "one of the best D&D books ever" or “the biggest, best D&D book of this generation” are far-fetched statements. If the second one proves to be true I am sorry about this generation, they have my condolences...

Mephisto wrote:I mean labeling VRGtR as "one of the best D&D books ever" or “the biggest, best D&D book of this generation” are far-fetched statements. If the second one proves to be true I am sorry about this generation, they have my condolences...

Superlatives bring page hits, which bring ad revenue. "meh" reviews don't, so everything is polarized into "best ever" or "hot garbage" in online reviews.

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:

Mephisto wrote:I mean labeling VRGtR as "one of the best D&D books ever" or “the biggest, best D&D book of this generation” are far-fetched statements. If the second one proves to be true I am sorry about this generation, they have my condolences...

Superlatives bring page hits, which bring ad revenue. "meh" reviews don't, so everything is polarized into "best ever" or "hot garbage" in online reviews.

I remember my friend telling me once, while he worked for this company called Mega Bloks here in Montreal that specialized in toy and game manufacturing, his bosses once said, don't worry about making products for the old school fans, they'll buy regardless. Focus on branding for a new generation of fans. When the old fans get upset over the changes, we can throw something out to them that will make them happy.

The focus on any business is to grow their brand. Wizards has seen exponential growth, esp with a younger generation who are playing now. I work as a Vice Principal in a high school and we have a gaming club with some of our kids. I have to say, kids who are playing now are playing differently than we might have when we were younger. They're interested in simplicity and crunch, not so much about the lore we always enjoyed. I think continuing a timeline that was discontinued 20 yrs ago, or even giving credence to it while building on it, might have turned off the younger generation, who, by the way, are often really into horror gaming. Lots of kids saw DnD in Stranger Things and kinda want their DnD like that. While I love the 3rd edition lore, I'm not sure that world would resonate with a younger generation, sadly enough.

So, like GonzoRon & Alhoon, I understand why Wizard's made the decision they did & accept it. I don't like it for the most part, but I get it. And to be fair, there are some gems. Bluetspur is fantastic...they made me care about a domain I never cared two ducks about. Har'Akir is awesome (even if old Ankhy looks quite weird). I really love the new Borca. The rest of the domains....ehh....not so crazy. But the other chapters are quite well done. My buddy already wants to make his existing character a reborn and his new character for a new campaign we're doing he wants to give a dark gift. We're both old school players going for 25 yrs now w/ Ravenloft, but we found cool stuff. I really liked the House of Lament adventure. The inclusion of spirit boards were cool. Stress is an interesting mechanic...could be better fleshed out, but pretty cool.

I guess what my rambling is trying to say is that yes, I agree, I'm really disappointed and sad that some things are left out & that they did not want to expand on the cool lore from 3rd ed. BUT, this will sell well & get A LOT of people playing Ravenloft. And you know what, when they want to learn more, like onmyoji did, they will hopefully come upon this amazing place, and then we shall trap them FOREVER!! hahahaha!! Ok, sorry, little melodramatic, but you get the gist.

And Jester, super looking forward to your updates.

FiranDarcalus wrote:And you know what, when they want to learn more, like onmyoji did, they will hopefully come upon this amazing place, and then we shall trap them FOREVER!! hahahaha!! Ok, sorry, little melodramatic, but you get the gist.

I am already building some... (traps)

Hello everyone! It's been a while!

I really and truly hate to say this...but...

I kinda like it? I mean, I love the section on different kinds of horror. It gives me all kinds of new ideas.

But *most* of all - I like that each domain appears as if there is something to *do* and that those goals are within reach of the player characters. For the longest time, the Darklords seemed untouchable or unreachable to many people. When I went around to conventions all around the country, that's the number one complaint that I always heard. I remember one particular fan that was *convinced* that there was a part in one of the books that said that the Darklords could not be permanently killed. (Of course, no such thing in any of the books is written, but for many fans...it seemed like that was the case.)

For that reason, many people ran Ravenloft like a tour. People would go around the Dark Realms and were supposed to stand in awe of the Dark Powers. Here, much of the book is dedicated to constructing actual adventures with an achievable goal.

Now, that said - I love the analysis here and many of the criticisms, in my opinion, are totally valid. It is what it is, you know?

As for the Islands in the Mist shift, one giant help to me was the new Netflix series Shadow and Bone. If you haven't seen it, it's really fun. But it shows how one could have trade and communication between two Domains with the Mists as a barrier. In my version of Ravenloft, I'm going to have the Vistani be guides through the Mists so that trade and communication can take place.

Anyhow - my two cents, for what it is worth. One more thing - I see a lot of love for the 3E version of Ravenloft. Thank you! It warms the cockles of my black heart.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:I kinda like it? I mean, I love the section on different kinds of horror. It gives me all kinds of new ideas.

Don't have it, haven't read it but it is one of the sections I am curious about. Don't forget that John W. Mangrum's metaplot in S's Gazetteers, switching from Gothic Horror to Lovecraft based horror, cosmic horror? But still it is not enough for me to buy the book even if I am a Ravenloft collecting freak.[/quote]

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:But *most* of all - I like that each domain appears as if there is something to *do* and that those goals are within reach of the player characters. For the longest time, the Darklords seemed untouchable or unreachable to many people. When I went around to conventions all around the country, that's the number one complaint that I always heard. I remember one particular fan that was *convinced* that there was a part in one of the books that said that the Darklords could not be permanently killed. (Of course, no such thing in any of the books is written, but for many fans...it seemed like that was the case.)

I disagree we had the FoG metaplot with the assassination of Gundar and then evolving to something even better.
The adventure Cat of Felkovic from Dungeon magazine ended with the possible killing of a darklord.
Web of Illusion is about the assassination of a Darklord.
Ship of Horror ends with the death of a difficult darklord, although he has many clones form the clone spell, but he is a 20th lvl Necromancer after all.
And finally IMO the Horror genre is not about winning, it is not epic... it is about surviving, sometimes even losing yourself in the process.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:For that reason, many people ran Ravenloft like a tour. People would go around the Dark Realms and were supposed to stand in awe of the Dark Powers. Here, much of the book is dedicated to constructing actual adventures with an achievable goal.

I ve never made an adventure outside Ravenloft, in fact I had most of the party being natives to the Demiplane since I begun DMing (Red Box era). If people were more focused on other worlds is probably because they enjoyed that more I believe. As an achievable goal is mentioned, are adventurer's in other worlds able to kill the king of a powerful nation or the leader of the Zhentarim? The answer is there is a probability but it is not the goal of each adventure. Now somehow the goal is this, destroy the darklord, as killing a king in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms is something easy to do. No in my opinion the usual thing to do is try to destroy a darklord's evil plan sometimes even socialize with them without even knowing they are the ones who pull the strings.
Now how Ravenloft is presented yes you may kill the darklord but then the world reboots itself back to 735 BC and everything is back to un-normal.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:As for the Islands in the Mist shift, one giant help to me was the new Netflix series Shadow and Bone. If you haven't seen it, it's really fun. But it shows how one could have trade and communication between two Domains with the Mists as a barrier. In my version of Ravenloft, I'm going to have the Vistani be guides through the Mists so that trade and communication can take place.

I saw it firstly because I liked the Shroud representation, but I have to say that two friends of mine who had read the book, thought it was odd that in the Netflix series the main character is being the focus of racists attacks because her characteristics give away her foreign ancestry, while other people with obvious "non-Slavic" background (where the main nation of the series is based on) are treated normaly.

Mephisto wrote:I disagree we had the FoG metaplot with the assassination of Gundar and then evolving to something even better.

The Gundar assassination is actually NOT part of the FoG module. It’s just convenient canon that appears directly thereafter to wrap up Gundarak as a domain. However, in FoG, you do absolutely defeat Daglan Daegon, who is technically the darklord of Daegon for about thirty seconds.

— onmyoji

EDIT: I just realized you said metaplot. Apologies for that. But the point about Daegon is still relevant.

onmyoji wrote:EDIT: I just realized you said metaplot. Apologies for that. But the point about Daegon is still relevant.

Yes forgot about that one... thanks! Actually in that adventure two darklords end up dead Daglan and his descendant the charismatic (Cha 3) Mrs R, priestess of the undead.

Rock wrote:

TwiceBorn Reborn wrote:Some of you good people are probably going to seethe when you see this review compilation over at ENWorld.

So there are people who really like the book and will enjoy playing weekend-in-hell-style. You know what? Good for them. If it's what they prefer, let them.
I like playing in the style encouraged by the Gazetteers and other 3e material. Other people's enjoyment of the 5e material does not detract from me loving the 3e material.
There's no need to get angry over this. Let people play the way they like, and we'll do the same. We've been creating material for each other while WotC let the setting lie fallow for years already. I doubt we'll stop now, just because we dislike the material they've finally put in print.

I don't disagree with you at all, and I think you've got a healthy perspective.

I don't have the book yet, and therefore have yet to comment on it, but suspect I will hold an opinion similar to yours in the end.

But I knew that some folks on these boards might feel a bit salty about some of the over-the-top praise that other reviewers are lavishing on VRGttM... and just wanted to share some of the other perspectives floating around the net.

TwiceBorn Reborn wrote:But I knew that some folks on these boards might feel a bit salty about some of the overtop praise that other reviewers are lavishing on VRGttM... and just wanted to share some of the other perspectives floating around the net.

I definitely am salty about that. A friend of a friend attacked my negative comments regarding the book. His praise for it was basically that they got the right people working on it and it's the "wokest" D&D has ever been.

I mean, that's all cool and good. I'm not attacking the writers. I'm attacking the product and saying they could've definitely made a better one. They definitely took the easy way out more than once. Either way, I definitely don't think the book should be praised solely based on what it's done/doing for D&D. Which is where it seems that most of the over-the-top-positive reviews are coming from.

— onmyoji

Mephisto wrote: I disagree we had the FoG metaplot with the assassination of Gundar and then evolving to something even better.
The adventure Cat of Felkovic from Dungeon magazine ended with the possible killing of a darklord.
Web of Illusion is about the assassination of a Darklord. ....

Right. I completely agree with you. However, most fans I've ever encountered around the country were under the impression that Darklords were unkillable or untouchable. This is different from the deep fan who's read all of the lore, scoured all of the modules, etc.

And I think that impression from most fans of Ravenloft was fairly problematic. Twenty years ago, mentioning Ravenloft or the Mists was often a big turn off. I have to say - Ravenloft's rep has completely changed because of the CoS. People are really excited about Ravenloft now that I've never seen. And I think that's a good thing, IMO.

I saw it firstly because I liked the Shroud representation, but I have to say that two friends of mine who had read the book, thought it was odd that in the Netflix series the main character is being the focus of racists attacks because her characteristics give away her foreign ancestry, while other people with obvious "non-Slavic" background (where the main nation of the series is based on) are treated normaly.

The main character faces discrimination because she is half Shu, and Shu are seen as the enemy. That's the problem. Not that she's specifically non-Slavic.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:Right. I completely agree with you. However, most fans I've ever encountered around the country were under the impression that Darklords were unkillable or untouchable. This is different from the deep fan who's read all of the lore, scoured all of the modules, etc.

And I think that impression from most fans of Ravenloft was fairly problematic. Twenty years ago, mentioning Ravenloft or the Mists was often a big turn off. I have to say - Ravenloft's rep has completely changed because of the CoS. People are really excited about Ravenloft now that I've never seen. And I think that's a good thing, IMO.

I completely agree, though from my point of view, it seems like darklords were in fact inherently killable in 2E and 3E. While I could be very much mistaken, the first time I've seen a darklord who was intended to be killed, but its actual narrative death was expressly forbidden was in Curse of Strahd. To clarify, CoS players can very much kill Strahd. Except the module is quite clear that it is only a matter of time after the players leave before Strahd revives and...... Barovia refuses to change.

But I also think you're right that CoS did a lot to better the reputation of the setting. Though I might be a bit biased, since CoS is the entire reason I'm here at all and became completely enamored with the 2E/3E lore on Barovia.

— onmyoji

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:Right. I completely agree with you. However, most fans I've ever encountered around the country were under the impression that Darklords were unkillable or untouchable. This is different from the deep fan who's read all of the lore, scoured all of the modules, etc.

Since the books don't specifically say that they can't be killed (except some exceptions who are either reforming or have a specific task you have to do like kill all the wolves in the domain), I believe this assumption is probably based on DM's liking so much the darklord stories and characters and wanting them to stay alive
As I said before what's the difference between a darklord and a king in another setting? Is it so easy to kill a king in Forgotten Realms?

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:And I think that impression from most fans of Ravenloft was fairly problematic. Twenty years ago, mentioning Ravenloft or the Mists was often a big turn off. I have to say - Ravenloft's rep has completely changed because of the CoS. People are really excited about Ravenloft now that I've never seen. And I think that's a good thing, IMO.

I remember ages ago if I refered to Ravenloft to other people outside my party there would be some kind of discrimination against the setting but that was based on ignorance, as all discriminations are. I remember that if someone else joined in the game I DMed and realised they were in Ravenloft they would have the "We are going to die" feeling right away, which was a false assumption based on their experience with other DMs or rumors about the setting. I believe that is because some gaming parties, who played more in other worlds, and focusing more in hack-and-slash gaming than role-playing (being uknowingly fans more of games like Hero Quest than D&D) and having DM's who were using the world in a problematic way IMO, they used it as a weekend in Hell setting. But now this is the only canon, how does this help the setting evolve?