Café de Nuit

Mephisto wrote:If there where halfings in the real world I would be OK of having halfling vistani and not being discreeminating against halflings, but as far as I know there are not any in real life, not even in Hobbiton, New Zealand...

If they were real, that time I dressed up as a hobbit for Halloween in elementary school might come back to haunt me.

Wolfglide wrote:If they were real, that time I dressed up as a hobbit for Halloween in elementary school might come back to haunt me.

Do you have any pictures??? (while scratching a wound...)

It's only ''racist'' if you wore the fake furry feet.

Mephisto wrote: I mean Vistani are a human race with mystical powers and not any race can have those specific powers and since this is a fantasy game.

I've always thought of Vistani as more of an inherited lifestyle that comes with an ancient curse, free to wander but can't stay in one place, forever chasing the myth of the founding of their people.

Dion of the Fraternity wrote:Hell_Born wrote:
All the books with references to Vistani already came out: The other one, "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything", has a magic item tarokka deck used by a halfling Vistani elder.

Good to know!

Mephisto wrote:

Wolfglide wrote:If they were real, that time I dressed up as a hobbit for Halloween in elementary school might come back to haunt me.

Do you have any pictures??? (while scratching a wound...)

I'm sure my parents have them somewhere, but I don't have my own copies.

ewancummins wrote:It's only ''racist'' if you wore the fake furry feet.

Well, I guess I can never become a public official in New Zealand. My mom made some nice felt covers to go over my shoes and make it look like I had hobbit feet.

I also had a pair of pointy ears to go with the ensemble. Even then, I was getting tall for a hobbit. I probably also had a fake pipe I could have been carrying (perhaps not at school), since I think my Gandalf costume came earlier. The cool thing about the pipe was that it slid into the top of my staff, just like in the movies. My mom gets credit for that construction as well.

One concern I have is that Ravenloft has never been the most politically correct setting with stuff like xenophobia, outcast ratings, a gay Darklord, etc. and I wonder how that will play with today's more politically correct atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, there has been some good that has been done by taking a more sensitive approach, but the dark atmosphere and envelope-pushing that Ravenloft has (compared to most other D&D settings) is something I don't want messed with.

Xenophobia and Outcast ranking are never been portrayed as good things, and the gay Darklord is not a Darklord because he is gay, he is a Darklord because he exterminated people en-masse. Olitically correct does not mean minority exponents can'tbe villain, only that they can't be portrayed as villainous because they belong to a minority. Hazalin is a tyarannical evil wizard, genocidal wanna be, being gay is irrilevant to his character.

yaoihuntressearth wrote:One concern I have is that Ravenloft has never been the most politically correct setting with stuff like xenophobia, outcast ratings, a gay Darklord, etc. and I wonder how that will play with today's more politically correct atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, there has been some good that has been done by taking a more sensitive approach, but the dark atmosphere and envelope-pushing that Ravenloft has (compared to most other D&D settings) is something I don't want messed with.

That's a good point. In a setting where evil is amplified and awarded, even if only for NPCs, the sensitivity of this current generation may find themselves outraged and calling for pitchforks and fire. Forget the fact that the point of the game is to promote good deeds and heroic PCs and to have them fighting tooth and nail to hold back the darkness of (meta)humanity (at least, outside of today's love of and for antiheroes) it's a potential issue for sure. I'd say likely, now that Wizards is on the record for catering to such outrage.

That said, given the fact that Ravenloft is built on a gothic foundation, then it is possible that Ravenloft already has a built-in editor, so to speak. Evil just isn't really defined like it is today, with most details being relayed through biased monologue, scant passages in old texts, or other such "offscreen" techniques. So really, if the current generation keeps that foundation of tradition then you could smooth or lessen the inevitable impact on those with inflated egos and itchy trigger fingers. Though, if CoS is an indicator, then the gothic foundation of pre-5E Ravenloft is being torn out and replaced, so the former part of the argument may hold more weight...?

Personally, I'm torn on whether or not I want to see another edition of Ravenloft. On the one hand I love seeing new generation takes and twists, to see how they interpret things, and to just open my brain up to their old-new ideas. There's bound to be a level of freshness there, just as there is with every edition.

On the other hand, and I've already alluded to it above, a part of me doesn't want another updated version of Ravenloft. In my opinion, with each update comes less Mist, and the less Mist there is then Ravenloft becomes just another Dungeons and Dragons setting (as opposed to an alternative setting using Dungeons and Dragons rules). Take 3E for example. The love and respect put into it was second to none, but compared to the Black Box the level of detail was just about too much (for me). Mission accomplished to be sure, given the stated intent of making it a campaign world and taking it away from fractured nightmare/weekend in hell, but with that the mystique was almost eliminated. Black Box Ravenloft was vague, really vague, but that was one of the draws to it for me. The lack of detail was a misty border for DMs to explore with their players, it was a teasing of the imagination much as the whispering of the Dark Powers. Everybody's Ravenloft was an individual prison to map an escape from. Then that changed, but thankfully so much respect was carried over that the new campaign world was a good change. It still carried and promoted its ancestry. High fantasy Dungeons and Dragons was still largely filtered (and the grind left in the bottom of the cup was easily ignored). It was a work of art, even if I prefer a different style on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and the weekend.

5E, while a great system, seems to me thus far to be more concerned with streamlining the game than with honouring who its ancestors were and what they stood for. Blanket statement of feeling now, to be confirmed or denied as more settings start to roll out.

But that's just me. Bring on the 5th edition of Ravenloft and let's see what the next generation does with it. It's not like any of us here don't already have our own versions of Ravenloft playing out as we speak...

What Ron said, and yaoihuntressearth (nice to you see you around, by the way) about Talon.

Indeed what we want as long time fans (Gaz, new adventures, etc.) surely isn’t what will be done, not a chance. It would involve many books and WotC won’t do that – not that many sales in that venture. They do not publish as many books each year as they previously did, so a major expansion of RL would be to put all their eggs in the same basket (And anyway, they will soon switch to 6th ed ) Won’t happen.

If RL is chosen, it will probably be a book based on an adventure (I-10?), and/or a basic core with 5-6 domain descriptions, one of them surely featuring Azalin (since his face popped in Tasha’s. Azalin is a classic lich D&D name, as Strahd is a classic D&D vampire NPC, so Azalin is easily marketable), and Mordent.

It will include many things sooooo uncanon in RL 3e, and will make my RL 3e fan eyes bleed profusely. I just hope they do not change too many things, and keep the unique atmosphere, as other pointed.

But am I happy they do it? Of course. It will make RL known to a new cohort of fan, and fans will want more details. That can’t be bad for the future of the setting.

yaoihuntressearth wrote:One concern I have is that Ravenloft has never been the most politically correct setting with stuff like xenophobia, outcast ratings, a gay Darklord, etc. and I wonder how that will play with today's more politically correct atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, there has been some good that has been done by taking a more sensitive approach, but the dark atmosphere and envelope-pushing that Ravenloft has (compared to most other D&D settings) is something I don't want messed with.

Politically correct doesn't mean, that bad things, like racism, don't exist in the world and since they exist why shouldn't they exist in a fantasy setting. I believe the CoS was problematic more in how it was written than anything else (like the example of Vistani being all bandits). I believe that xenophobia and racism in the concept of fantasy game can be elemental sometimes in alienating the PC's. Think of the party who saves someone from a beast in the outskirts of a village only to face hostility from the villagers because someone in the party is demihuman, think of the injustice and hopelessness the characters might feel. Or there is the example of people who have been discriminated themselves but become abusers themselves when they have the chance, as the racism that humans experience in Sithicus from elves. The state-demihuman-slavery of Falkovnia is one of the things that makes that domain so horrible to visit. These are also situations that make Ravenloft grim and dangerous, because gothic horror it is not only about fighting monsters of gothic literature but also of feeling that sense of hopelessness and isolation. Sometimes regular people might be worse than monsters in a gothic setting (think of the village mob from Birnam that hanged Flora ApBlanc for instance) and it is usually because of fear. Because that is what racism is in the end, fear of a group of people that may seem different, close-mindedness and insecurity that becomes hatred.

And I agree also about Hazlik that it was not his sexual orientation that made him a darklord, but his vengefulness and evil (Red wizard of Thay). If you consider the events that stigmatised his life, having the man he was attracted to, but insecure to approach, manipulate him with the help of a rival wizard and ridicule him for his sexuality, tattooing his body with feminine designs, because his sexuality was different than what is accepted probably in Mulan society. Thinkn about the injustice he must have felt, I mean Hazlik may have been evil, but he was also (and still is) completely insecure, probably with his own sexuality as well. Basically he is more of a sociopath who happens to be a homosexual, but also feels ashamed of his sexuality making him at the same time a homophobe (or else he wouldn't mind the tattooing so much). Instead of setting aside his hatred for the people who ridiculed him and evolve as a human being, his lack of sense of self and insecurity made him seek a disordered kind of justice that now makes him willing to plan the extermination of the entire Mulan ethnicity in the multiverse, racism and genocide in a massive scale. It is actually the racism (or better sexism) that was directed at him that drove Hazlik to his crime before entering the Land of Mists, his victimization fueled his hatred and created this cycle of victim becoming the abuser, but at the same time his victimization is his curse, as he has nightmares of being ridiculed by his rivals.

On the other hand since D&D is a game that also kids play, I can see why some things are changing, because through the game you can educate people, especially in an rpg game that supposedly supports the development of empathy in people (unless someone is always playing a character who constantly tries to kill his fellow PC's). But I believe changes can be made without changing the atmosphere, as ...

Mistmaster wrote:Xenophobia and Outcast ranking are never been portrayed as good things.

So my opinion is that it is important to adress the issue of racism, than just starting with a clean slate, like it does not exist.

Since House of Gryphon Hill has been mentioned, I made a quick search on ebay and discovered an image that was never issued in the wizard of the coast pdf version some years ago when they had it as a free download. This supposedly the battle between the Alchemist and Strahd outside the H.H.Mausoleum. Well it is "obvious" who is going to win, unless those Alchemist fists are considered magical...

Maybe they are anointed in Magic Fang Oil? An Alchemist should have access to it.

Hmmm... could be, maybe you could add a card in the mesmerists session of what object should the mesmerist be holding in the picture of the final battle, I changed the picture to look more "realistic" but I guess you could add anything to that hand...

Edit: This entry was butchered while trying to bring a quote forward. I thought I was in "Post reply", but was in Edit instead. Oh well.

I'm pretty sure the younger generations can handle horror just fine. Just get rid of the bad stereotypes and voilà.

I think I really would like to see something similar to the Sword Coast Adventurer's guide, with just enough of everything to get players going in terms of lore and game options. I doubt there would be enough space for every storyline within the setting, but still enough to get a good feel of it.