Café de Nuit

Interesting news, Ron!

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote: There was VRGtt Mists on schedule, and, apparently, VRGtt Serial Killer in the works. So why would WW cancel?

OK, I'm back from 10 days out and read the boards quickly yesterday night and this morning. What Rucht said about VRGttSK was that an outlook only was developped. As I understand it, the book wasn't being written.

Joël

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote: There was VRGtt Mists on schedule, and, apparently, VRGtt Serial Killer in the works. So why would WW cancel?

Just because projects are planned or even in the works doesn't mean that management can't decide that the effort in running a licensed property isn't worth the expense when they analyze it compared to what htey could be making if the resources were devoted to products that don't have the additonal cost that comes with licensed properties.

I guess that what happened with RL was a pure numers game. the license was up for renewal, WW took a hard look at the numbers and decided that their money could be spent more effeciently on other things. (I'm sure RL was profitable. I suspect it wasn't profitable enough.)

I've erased a few posts because of personal attacks.

Please, gentlemen, be nice or make it in PM What is done is done and we can't change it. Let's put our energies to moving forward.

Joël

Joël of the Fraternity wrote:I've monitored a few posts because of personal attacks.

Please, gentlemen, be nice or make it in PM

Joël

For clarification purposes, we were asked to be the Changeling developers after the line was cancelled by White Wolf and was picked up by Arthaus. Changeling, like Wraith, always appealed to a select group of people who were avid supporters of the line, but it never broke into the gaming mainstream. We kept Changeling alive for about 2-3 years longer than it was supposed to have lasted. After Changeling was cancelled, we were asked if we were interested in Ravenloft -- to which we gave an enthusiastic yes. And Ravenloft had another run of about 3 years and 19 products.

We are proud to have worked for both lines and have received compliments from our industry peers, who have a fairly keen appreciation of what is good and what is not.

Sincerely,
Jackie Cassada

Changeling was such a great game.

Sad thing Wraith didn't get the same chance. *Sniff*

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote: See now I'm confused.

There was VRGtt Mists on schedule, and, apparently, VRGtt Serial Killer in the works. So why would WW cancel?

I can think of reasons why WotC might cancel the liscence, but not WW. I don't buy that "We felt we did all that we set out to do, and there wasn't many other places to go with it." line at all.

That answer's quite simple.

Cost.

Licensing plus the price of publishing the books together wasn't worth it for White Wolf/Arthaus.

Core books are the lions share of sales. I'll wager the first core book did fine, but I'll say the poorly revised core rule book wasn't quite so profitable, between having little new to offer anyone with the original book, the new information mostly of poor quality, and potential backlash for renaming two very similar books, which could easily be perceived as an attempt to trick customers into a purchase. Oh, heck - the monster book was renamed as well. Bad moves both in my opinion.

The gazetteers are, for the most part, the quality books of the series. However, they are the most Ravenloft specific - they don't have broad appeal. As such, limited sales. People can get use out of Van Richten's Arsenal or the setting book without playing in Ravenloft, but an investment in a gazetteer is an investment in the setting.

Conversely, the more broad appeal books like Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light, which should have an audience outside of Ravenloft, probably did decent in their sales. And promptly alienated the buyer based on the shoddy quality. Anyone who might have bought a gazetteer after picking up one of those books may have quite reasonably decided otherwise.

I imagine Masque of the Red Death also had sluggish sales and served as another blow to the customer base based on apparently poor work.

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that White Wolf's decision to drop the line was reached around December, when Ravenloft books took a drastic price drop. Possibly earlier.

I think some of the marketing decisions had more short-term benefits with long term problems, which finally caught up with the setting.

Not to mention - most, if not all, of the Ravenloft books from here on out would see diminishing profits even if the setting was popular and high selling. They were getting further and further away from more mainstream subjects, even for Ravenloft, and delving further into what might be considered minutiae. Plenty of ideas - the clusters most notably - but few to none of them having common appeal, even among Ravenloft fangs.

So a presumably diminished customer base and increasingly niche books don't make for an optimistic outlook on the setting.

Anyway, that's my conjecture why things went the way they went.

For my part, I'm glad Arthaus no longer has the setting. Some might prefer bad books to none at all, but I'd prefer none at all - and I'm of the opinion Ravenloft's quality was swiftly degenerating. Should the line get produced again, say by Wizards, it's all that much the easier for the new designers and authors to work around information that isn't there than to work around something that's already seen print (no matter how good of an idea it might be to pretend certain books or setting aspects never existed).

With that said, there were some truly good books to come out of Ravenloft. The material in the original core book was great for a relatively new d20 market with a staff of writers and designers still getting their footing in it. The gazetteers were typically well-written and helped fill in a lot of information about the setting. Disappointment in books like Champions of Darkness made me reticent to take a gander at other, non-gazetteer books, but I'm sure a few other gems made their way in as well.

At the very least, my thanks towards the goodly folk of the Kargatane, Rucht, Steve Miller, and any other quality authors who I unfortunately missed in the shuffle.

Hopefully the setting will rise again and hopefully with a staff that have the talent to turn a profit on it and keep the quality both good and consistent. If Wizards of the Coast publishes it (or does anything with it), that'll probably help, too - officiality counts a lot for some people, sad though that is at times.

Well, I just wanted to pop over here from RPG.net and give Ravenloft my condolences. I know I've loved it through two editions, but I never got to run it in 3rd edition (used some of the stuff for my Forgotten Realms campaign, but that doesn't really help).

Anyway, I just hope the fan community stays around. I know that I want to do something with Ravenloft a little later this fall, but with a different roleplaying system. Hopefully I'll be able to get on here and post what I've been able to put together.

Oh, and thanks to the Weathermay Twins, err, I mean Dark Duo for keeping the Ravenloft vision alive at White Wolf. I still love reading through my limited edition Ravenloft Campaign Setting book. The gazetteers are great too along with Van Richten's Arsenal and the DM screen. That's all that I've read from the line. I'm sure a good amount of the other stuff is great too.

I agree with most of the points Trickstergod had (The most RL-specific stuff was of the highest quality, and the most widely-appeling stuff was of the lowest, which isn't good for pulling in new fans) except for this:

Trickstergod wrote:For my part, I'm glad Arthaus no longer has the setting. Some might prefer bad books to none at all, but I'd prefer none at all - and I'm of the opinion Ravenloft's quality was swiftly degenerating.

I diasagree. I think they had finally found their footing, which makes it all the more unfortunate. DT&DL and LotB are two of the Highlights of the line as far as I'm concerned. I also disagree that cluster Gaz's would be of limited appeal. Some, yes. But others, with the proper spin could be just the thing to suck people in. What could be more classic horror than the Amber Wastes? Someone could do a whole hardcover sourcebook on Rokushima Taiyoo, I'm sure. Also, the Shadowborn cluster has it's share of fans, myself included.

I agree with Trickstergod, the quality of the books overall hurt the line badly all these years. It is sad, but bad products do more to damage the line than good products do to improve it.
I hope WotC does revive the line, imprinting it with the much needed quality.

This has to be said..

THIS IS A VICTORY FOR LIGHT, TRUTH, GOODNESS AND RGHT! tHE DARKLORDS ARE DEAD! BWAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!

Ok, seriously, I think its unfortunate that the line ended now. I agree that the authors in WW had found their groove and we starting to crank out good material. I'd like to add my thanks to them for their efforts and work.

Now they must die so their curruption will not spread.. *draws sword*

If it can be relevant. Here's an interview given by top WotC guys in charge of RPG management. People were asking about future releases and trends:

"Q: Mini campaigns or other campaigns or just focus on Forgotten Realms?

A: We're going to focus on what we have. In the past, the TSR folks discovered that the more campaign settings you support at any one time, you split your audience into tiny fractious groups who hate each other. We want to preserve what we managed to create and sustain in 3rd edition. It's all D&D. We encourage you to find whatever you like in Forgotten Realms and put it in whatever you're playing. Heroes of Horror can template over your campaign that changes the flavor slightly. Heroes books are not mini-campaigns, that's ways to add flavor and style to your campaign, adventure, etc. Race series, Terrain series, they're all about dropping the elements into your campaign. So you can create interesting campaign scenarios for yourselves."



Joël

It was found at http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php ... ad&order=0

that Interview doens't sound good for Ravenloft.

I may be in minority but I think the Arthaus Ravenloft line was excellent.
really good books:
DTDL
LOB
the gazetteers 1 through 5
Van Richten Arsenal
Van Richten's guide to the walking dead
van richten guider to the shadwo Fey
Denzien of Darkness
Ravenloft DM book
Ravenloft core setting book.

the books that were only ok....
Ravenloft Player Handbook- WOTC made Arthuas produce the book. Wotc even published a Forgotten Realsm Player handbook too, after they produced a Forgotten Realm Setting book.
HOL- alot of mistakes but still some usefull stuff
COD- like HOL
Denzien of Dread.. alot of mistakes, but Artuas was forced to produce the book.
MORD.. even more niche then Ravenloft.


We as Ravenloft fans Know the big mistakes that HOL and COD made, but would a causal? they woulnd't know that the Dark Powers shouldn't be evil. Heck, I have players who think the Dark powers are evil. Some books have had problems, and all books had editing problems, but I don't think that turned people off. I think Ravenloft is just not popular enough to sustain a line. DragonLance can becuase they have the novels to hook new players. What does Ravenloft have?