Talk:Coal

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huh? are going to document every mundane object? Iron? Sock? Spoon? :) -- Gonzoron 12:47, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Coal is actually very important for several reason. It is the leading industry and export of Nosos, underwriting the wealth of the darklord there. Hence it plays a significant role in unravelling the economy of the Core and beyond, and in destroying the enviroment in Nosos. In an evidently related vane, it is a leading type of mine, and mines are always of interest in a world with few dungeons. Finally, we have primative steam engines in Ravenloft, and in particular paddlewheelers, and most of them are going to burn coal. Coal then is the energy of future in Ravenloft's leading lands. It is their oil.

And while on the related topic, salt is great consequence in a world without refrigeration. No plans for pepper. But spicies generally might get a mention eventually.Cure 16:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

You do not need a separate page for every object, especially when its definition is the same as real world. Make a page listing industrial components or the like, and have a paragraph on the importance of coal to Nosos and steam power. It simply does not merit its own page. --Nerit 21:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I would agree.. Important to Nosos, definitely. Important to the world.. sure. Important to the wiki... I don't think so. What's the page going to say that one couldn't find at wikipedia? If someone wants to know all about coal in Ravenloft, they can search for it and Nosos, etc, will turn up in the search results. I don't think they need to land on this page and then navigate to all those places. -- Gonzoron 01:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
This is part of the problem with organizing information for a wiki. Another example is Church of Hala and Hala. What needs to be said for Hala that merits its own page? We hardly know anything about the goddess outside of the faith following her, thus all information on her is relevant to Church of Hala and can be contained therein. --Nerit 08:03, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Hrm... you may have a point there. But something in the back my mind is saying there's merit to keeping the religions and deities separate. I can't really articulate it, though. For the sake of reference, note that wikipedia has w:Islam and w:Allah and w:Buddha and w:Buddhism, but granted, since those are real religions, much more source material will exist on them than any fictional faith. As another reference point, the FR wikia is a little inconsistent. All the deities seem to have their own pages, with a section on their worshippers, but some (Cyric for example) have a Church of ___ page as well, and some have a catgory for their worshippers. Not sure which is best for us, especially considering so much more has been written on FR's pantheon than RL's. (How cool would a "Faiths and Pantheons of the Mists" book have been?) -- Gonzoron 14:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
True, hummm. It's just that Ezra and Hala are both so mysterious and don't have precedence outside the religions, you know? There isn't much to say on their own page. They belong on a list of gods (so-called god in Ezra's case?), but what can we put on their pages? In real religions there's a lot to say about the nature of each god, religious references, interpretations.... At this point it seems easier to have Hala's story on the Church of Hala page for easy info access? The same could be said for Ezra. Page splitting should happen when it's so long it becomes hard to read. Oh, well. --Nerit 17:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
The Lawgiver and his Church deserve seperate pages, regardless of how little we know about him. When I create a link from the page on the Black Duke to the the Lawgiver who he is supposed, on some accounts, to resemble, I don't want that link shuttled off to a church that he most definitely doesn't resemble. It is, in short, a category mistake. A NPC and a religious institution are not the same thing. Seperate pages allow for effect linking. That is not to say that the Nova Vaasa page should be taken apart, but much of it links to elsewhere where the real detail is given. This of corse means that there will be some redundency, but that matters far less in virtual space than on limited paper.Cure 23:12, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Why coal should and does matter to Ravenloft's advanced domains:

"The British Industrial Revolution is characterized by developments in the areas of textile manufacturing, mining, metallurgy and transport driven by the development of the steam engine. Above all else, the revolution was driven by cheap energy in the form of coal, produced in ever-increasing amounts from the abundant resources of Britain. Coal converted to coke gave the blast furnace and cast iron in much larger amounts than before, and a range of structures could be created, such as The Iron Bridge. Cheap coal meant that industry was no longer constrained by water resources driving the mills, although it continued as a valuable source of power. The steam engine helped drain the mines, so more coal reserves could be accessed, and the output of coal increased. The development of the high-pressure steam engine made locomotives possible, and a transport revolution followed." Cure 05:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


Yes coals matter to ravenloft, no question. But so does wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, silk and any number of other resources. If Ravenloft were a real world all these things and more are important. But as a game/fiction world? Does anyone really care about such details? And if they do, is there anything we can say about how those things are used in Ravenloft that isn't an obvious and simple extrapolation of how they are used in the real world? I just don't see what value is added to the wiki by having a Coal page. -- Gonzoron 15:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, suppose someone in the future wants to set an adventure in a coal mine, and will look here for likely prospects. That's the best situation I can come up with that would justify this, and I'm still not seeing it. DeepShadow 02:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's say some one wants to set an adventure on a boat going upriver and that someone stops to ask how do boats go upriver. Sailing if one can wait for favorable winds might work, but that is hardly reliable. Magic is a blunt weapon in a world increasingly not relying on it as well as one where magic is quite hidden. Well, why not one of those paddlewheelers? Very good, powered by, well, magic. No, that is a blunt instrument. Well, what powers paddlewheelers? Steam. Where do we get the steam? A boiler. How does the steam get in the boiler (an excellent question as far as Lumley House is concerned incidently)? The burning of wood or, preferably, of coal. Is there any coal about? Where? Affordably priced? Isn't Nosos locked a way in the Mists? Coal is actually essential to the existence of blast furnances? So all of Ravenloft's most advanced metallurgical works need it too. And all the mills that are not next to an inclined river? It is in fact the basis of the beginning of the industrial revolution that is sketched on the horizon? How does the stuff get distrubuted about the Core? Etc. It is part and parcel of sketching out the trade relations of the Core and beyond. Or, if one prefers, it is not doing any harm.Cure 02:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I look forward to your entries on wood, salt, wheat, iron, gold, beef, wool, and silk. DeepShadow 14:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)



I was ready to let this go, as Cure said, where's the harm in it? But consider this... Assume someone wants to know about coal in Ravenloft. They come here (to Main Page) and type "coal" in the search box and hit enter. By default, "enter" hits the "Go" button and takes them directly to Coal, currently a not very interesting page. If they had been clever/wiki-savvy enough to hit "Search" instead, they get all the pages that mention coal... a much more useful result. Now, imagine if Coal didn't exist. The default "enter" would not have a target to "Go" to and would switch to "Search". So, ironically, having this page is actually slowing down the user's access to information on Coal.

Now, if this page was updated well, with links to all mentions of Coal on the wiki, yes it would be just as useful as a search. But what information would it provide that a search does not? And how much harder is it to keep the Coal page updated than to simply type coal in the text of any other page on the wiki? Suppose I (as another random user) have a homebrew domain that produces coal, and I'm typing up a page on it.... am I going to be likely to think, "hey, I mentioned coal, I better go to Coal and add a link to my homebrew domain?" or am I more likely to just write: "Resources: coal" on my domain's page?

another example: type "wheat" in the search box and hit enter. The ability to find all the info in the wiki about wheat is already there. A [[Wheat]] page would be redundant and get in the way, just like Coal does. Add to that the time that it took to create Coal and the time we've spent discussing it, all of which could have been spent on more productive parts of the wiki. So, is it truly doing no harm? -- Gonzoron 15:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)



This is getting frustrating and needlessly so as far as I can see.

I sincerely apologize for that. Considering your many contributions thus far, I would not want to in any way frustrate you or discourage you from continuing. If having a Coal page makes you happy, so be it. -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Type "Ezra" and press 'search.' And Mistipedia fails, literally, to show anything but a white page. (Verified on multiple browsers. [Actually, a pecularity that occurs with my Morzilla varient browser I see. It is rather the next problem that has been verified on multiple browsers.])

this is very odd. I have no such issue in Chrome, Firefox or IE. "Ezra, Go" goes to Ezra, and "Ezra, Search" goes to a search for Ezra. Try deleting your cookies from fraternityofshadows.com? -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

A flaw in the software evidently, but also a reality we live with. Type "wonder" and hit search, no results at all. Hit 'go' and wonder to be behold a page of wonders. Evidently another flaw in the software.

This is a puzzlement that I've been working on. "Better searching" has been near the bottom of my to-do list for a while. I'll bump it up higher -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I have run into others that I unwisely failed to document. Now type "moon" and hit search. Everything connected to "The Dark of the Moon" comes up plus a few references one might actually want to the thing in the sky. Search is a useful, imprecise, unreliable creature. But I don't consider that an argument for tearing down the "Ezra" page or suggesting that the "Dark of the Moon" stuff is cluttering up access to the page on the actual moon.

A good point, though the line must be drawn somewhere, IMHO. Perhaps my line is a little more restrictive than yours. -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Further, no page we create is assured in the least of remaining as up to date as a search because the minute after we create it someone can add something to the database without bothering to go to the page and write the information, or at least a link, into it. But again that is surely not an argument against writing pages or an argument for banning additions to the database that aren't all properly written into any page ultimately dealing with them.

agreed. It just seems to me that for certain generic topics, search is a better way to find them. I see that Coal is not just a generic object to you, though, as it is for me. -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

As to the time matter, I cannot account for the interest of others in the non-existence of a page on coal.

Let's put it this way: Is there a potential page you could imagine that should not exist? Not something completely irrelevant like [[Madonna]], but something that exists in Ravenloft, and yet does not merit a page. [[bootlaces]], perhaps? or [[milk]]? [[saddles]]? [[Old Age]]? [[The dress S bought in Dementlieu]]? Taken to the ludicrous extreme: [[Nose Hairs]]? [[Category:Toilet]]? Whatever it may be, however important it may be to all or some of the people of Ravenloft, it might not need a page in the wiki. That's the feeling I had about Coal. -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

But as for myself, the trade relations in the Core and beyond and in gaming worlds generally have always interested me because they not only give world's texture but they are excellent story drivers. In the last handful of months, I answered the complaint of someone on the board about the remoteness and disconnectedness of Hazlan by explaining to him my vision of the opium trade. In his approximative words, my description was a source of numerous worthy gaming hooks or actually even more than that. It should also be noted that the designers repeatedly bothered to include information on the products of the respective lands and very occasionally said something concrete about trade relations. So this is not some inexplicable madness on my part alone. Indeed, we even have a coal magnet darklord whose domain has the incredible (and for my money wrong) ability to attach itself to any Misty Border for the purpose of coal export!

Arguably slightly madder, I am very interested in technology and its limits in Ravenloft. Machines do not run themselves. Even the material on Lumley House admits as much. In a magical world the question is not posed. But the Lamordians are antimagical positivists and they are not building machines that are powered by the arcane or the divine. Azalin sticks a hearth fiend in his forge, the Lamordian does not, but if he wants to achieve at all comparable metallurgical results he better have access to high quality coal. But back to machines, anything that is written about them implies a discussion of the power for them. Even the incredibly misguided - evidently in my opinion - science prestige class included alchemical batteries as a power source. Modernity, in the material sense, is about technology and the energy to fuel it. Greyhawk can do very well ignoring questions of energy. Ravenloft cannot. Indeed the latest Gaz of the Frat had a very nice section on how Easan meets his energy requirements with lightning collection and batteries. And yes, I wrote that into the Mistipedia too.

I won't say that it is my time to waste because I don't see it as wasted time. But if anyone wants to provide a prioritised list of what I should be treating, I will look it over at least. Do I presume correctly that homebrew material won't be on that list? Or do we really want to go down that road . . . .

Again I apologize for implying that the topics that interest you are wasted time. I've tried to make Mistipedia as open as possible in terms of what can go in it, homebrew or otherwise. I would not presume to make such a list. It's clear that everyone has different priorities as far as what to add. It is inherent in the very concept of a wiki. -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Granted, there is an other matter in other pages that I have addressed that may well pose the question of appropriateness to Ravenloft, a question that is a legitimate community concern. But I fail utterly to see the inappropriateness of treating coal in the Land of Mists. For in sum, it is canon, it is the canon business of a domain lord, it is the chief canon business of a domain, that darklord and domain engage in the canon trade of coal, we have canon blast furnances that require coal, we have canon paddlewheelers that very probably make use of coal, and we have the canon beginnings of an industrial revolution that is about not relying upon magic to get things done, and that means energy, and that energy is to a very significant degree coal. And frankly, the filth, grim, pollutingness, and poison of coal is gothic in a way: a madness that we willing visit upon ourselves to this day.Cure 16:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


(If you are starting to read here, see my comments above inlined with Cure's post.) In conclusion, I regret if this discussion has frustrated you. We obviously are not going to agree on the point, but I'm willing to table it for now. Coal can stay, and lets move on. -- Gonzoron 19:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)