Café de Nuit

Let us just start off with one thing: I am not bashing other editions. I am just unfamiliar, found this concept intriguing, and have a few retro converts from 4th edition. Is there anyone out there that can point me in the direction of a 2nd edition variant of the upper edition sorcerer or has their own write up for their own games (even a link to a website with something to get the process going)? They are unique and distanced from the learned mages and flippant bard types and my lack of experience should not deter others from enjoying them in my own game. If there is anyone out there with solid write ups, 2nd edition examples, or personal thoughts on class construction, please let me know.

Thanks, Dark Angel

I think there's something similar in the Players Option books, not 100% which one, I'm not up on sorcerors though, I get that they were born to magic rather than just though study, but other than that I'm not sure how they differ mechanically (I'm also a 2nd ed guy but I never really kept up with the other eds, I only recently found out what a tiefling was)

thekristhomas wrote:I think there's something similar in the Players Option books, not 100% which one, I'm not up on sorcerors though, I get that they were born to magic rather than just though study, but other than that I'm not sure how they differ mechanically (I'm also a 2nd ed guy but I never really kept up with the other eds, I only recently found out what a tiefling was)

Don't feel too bad. One of my best friends ran Planescape and that would likely be the only concrete reason I know what a tiefling is. I know they don't study for their abilities like true mages, but achieve greater abilities as they level up. I am basically looking for a similar xp progression as a basic wizard group with enough perks to differentiate them from other kits (but maintaining a balance to not make them ridiculous in comparison).

2nd Ed Sorcerers are in BG2, so if you can find an old PDF of the instruction manual for that, there's all the tables and charts in there for them.

Baldur's Gate II's sorcerer rules:

http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer

Thanks, Drinnik and Dion! If I cannot figure something out from the link, then that's on me.

The arcanists of Netheril from Forgotten Realms are kind of a mix of sorcerer and wizard if I remember correctly. Check out the Netheril boxed set.

Yeah, I (well, we as it was more than just me) retro fitted a version of the sorcerer to 2nd edition. The Baldur's Gate bit is pretty close to what we had. The real difference we had was that instead of just giving a set number of spells to cast, we instead went with 'spell points' and basically let the sorcerer cast any combination of the spells they knew, using up 1 spell point per spell level cast. We also had a mechanic for spell failure based on spell level and repeated use of a spell in a short time.

Cromstar wrote:Yeah, I (well, we as it was more than just me) retro fitted a version of the sorcerer to 2nd edition. The Baldur's Gate bit is pretty close to what we had. The real difference we had was that instead of just giving a set number of spells to cast, we instead went with 'spell points' and basically let the sorcerer cast any combination of the spells they knew, using up 1 spell point per spell level cast. We also had a mechanic for spell failure based on spell level and repeated use of a spell in a short time.

I thought about a 'spell point pool' too (I used it on a homebrew monster to decent effect), but think that allows the class too much flexibility. Being 6th level and able to rocket off 11 barrages of magic missiles seems a little unbalanced. One thing I did (noticing that most lists show a sorcerer has as many castable spells at 1st and 2nd level), was to allow them to gain a familiar (as per the find familiar spell) like a paladin gains a mount at 4th level (and without out it costing a precious spell slot to keep it on hand).

One question to all involved here: how do sorcerers gain spells? In 2nd edition, a mage has a spell book with a number of slots per level (determined by user's intelligence score) to keep spells. The wizard tries to copy a spell into their book by attempting a percentile check (also determined by their intelligence score) and then can memorize and cast it as they please. I wouldn't mind allowing something similar to the 3rd+ editions (I have incorporated similar things into my game). I don't want to use the learn spell percentage as it is 'too wizardly' and am not totally sold on using charisma to determine it either. One last quick one, how does a sorcerer 'get' new spells? Are they randomly determined or do they 'want it' when they level up?

Thanks again in advance for the answers.

thekristhomas wrote:I think there's something similar in the Players Option books, not 100% which one, I'm not up on sorcerors though, I get that they were born to magic rather than just though study, but other than that I'm not sure how they differ mechanically (I'm also a 2nd ed guy but I never really kept up with the other eds, I only recently found out what a tiefling was)

Player's Option: Spells & Magic. They weren't called sorcerers, but there was a spell-point system for wizards in there. I was a player in a campaign using them. (The class may have been called Chanellers, or maybe that was just the name in our campaign for them.) It was fun. Much more versatile than standard wizards, but you had to track fatigue, and you could find yourself helpless on the floor if you channeled too much magic too fast.

Dark Angel wrote:One last quick one, how does a sorcerer 'get' new spells? Are they randomly determined or do they 'want it' when they level up?

As someone who has played sorcerers and other spontanzous spellcasters in 3.5, you will definitively let your players handpick their spells. The number of spells is sharply limited, and getting a decent selection without too much overlap is already hard if you handpick. A sorcerer who only ends up with costly spells like Stoneskin or narrow spells like Hold Portal is basically a glorified henchman with a lucky Charisma roll, especially as he can't simply find scrolls and add them to his known spells if the dice betray him.

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:

thekristhomas wrote:I think there's something similar in the Players Option books, not 100% which one, I'm not up on sorcerors though, I get that they were born to magic rather than just though study, but other than that I'm not sure how they differ mechanically (I'm also a 2nd ed guy but I never really kept up with the other eds, I only recently found out what a tiefling was)

Player's Option: Spells & Magic. They weren't called sorcerers, but there was a spell-point system for wizards in there. I was a player in a campaign using them. (The class may have been called Chanellers, or maybe that was just the name in our campaign for them.) It was fun. Much more versatile than standard wizards, but you had to track fatigue, and you could find yourself helpless on the floor if you channeled too much magic too fast.

I totally forgot that existed in there. Talk about re-inventing the wheel.

Dark Angel wrote: *snipped for space*

Part of a series of tradeoffs. To counter-act spell-spam, we had a spell-chance failure that grew each time you used the same spell in a day (and using them back to back could result in penalties increasing faster). If you ever failed a spell, you lost that spell entirely for that day. So in theory, a 6th level sorcerer could cast magic missile 14 times in a row, but by the time he's cast 5 of them in successive rounds, he's going to face a 10% failure on the 6th attempt, quickly escalating from there. And magic missile is nice but not infallible: step around a corner or behind a big enough tree and you're safe. Plus, the same sorcerer could cast 4 fireballs with those points instead. In addition to the spell failure part, we also added some fatigue issues with sorcerers similar to what Gonzoron mentioned (sorcerers needed INT and CON stats). It doesn't seem super unbalanced to me, considering the smaller spell pool the sorcerers had (mages could pick from a broad pool of 1st level spells in their spellbooks if they had them...a sorcerer would have access to a max of 5 after reaching 13th level).

As for how they gain spells, I really only see two good options. Either the sorcerer picks what new spell(s) they want to gain when they next level up at the start of a level or the DM offers them a short list to choose what they want from based on varying factors. It can't just be totally random because that could potentially screw a character entirely.

There's an in between option of offering certain thematic lists of progression for spells:

I have always found the Spell Path System very useful. I've used the original 2E version by Kuntz/Baur from Dragon 216 quite a bit. A revised excerpt can be seen here: http://hep-www.colorado.edu/~jladue/path.html

Sean K Reynolds adapted the basic system to 3E: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfil.../pathmagic.html

Green Ronin did an even better version in their Advanced Player's Manual, for their Eldritch Weaver class. See some great additions and examples on this site: http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/weaver.htm