Café de Nuit

No problem. The praise is well deserved.

Now, we need a Tarokka Supplement with rules for using it to determine initiative, as an adventure deck and an alternate table for Veteran of the Dread Realms using the major arcana deck.

This is very, very impressive work. I can't speak to the rules system (my knowledge of Savage World is roughly limited to Ken Hite's Day after Ragnarok), but the setting goes in some very intriguing directions. Much of the Gazetteer stuff has gone in the direction of making the setting work as a coherent content, so I don't know that anyone's ever suggested going in the other direction, breaking things apart and doubling down on the thematics instead. I'll need to read through it more closely, but I definitely like what's been done and will take it under consideration when I next run Ravenloft -- even if I don't use Savage World.

Jeremy, in case you haven't seen them, there are some more complimentary comments toward your work on our facebook page.

NeoTiamat wrote:This is very, very impressive work. I can't speak to the rules system (my knowledge of Savage World is roughly limited to Ken Hite's Day after Ragnarok), but the setting goes in some very intriguing directions. Much of the Gazetteer stuff has gone in the direction of making the setting work as a coherent content, so I don't know that anyone's ever suggested going in the other direction, breaking things apart and doubling down on the thematics instead. I'll need to read through it more closely, but I definitely like what's been done and will take it under consideration when I next run Ravenloft -- even if I don't use Savage World.

Thanks! And I really hope that my ideas on the setting can be inspirational to people in any way at all, whether they use the system stuff or not. I mean, in a lot of ways, the whole point of this project was "What can I add to Ravenloft that isn't just a different set of dice to roll?"

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:Jeremy, in case you haven't seen them, there are some more complimentary comments toward your work on our facebook page.

I did see those! It's almost too much for me to handle, actually. People are being so nice about the work overall. =)

I downloaded it and am very familiar with SW, but I will need my sweet time to digest ist.

270 pages is longer than some complete settings of SW

Skyrock wrote:I downloaded it and am very familiar with SW, but I will need my sweet time to digest ist.

270 pages is longer than some complete settings of SW

To be fair, like 115 pages of that is the setting material and another 70 pages is monsters and NPCs. The actual rules and primer stuff is only about 90 pages long. You could pretty easily divide the book up into a "player's guide" and a "GM's guide," or into a "rules book" and a "setting book." In the end, I decided that I just wanted the whole thing in one volume, with the possibility of mini-expansions, cluster gazetteers, and the like so that the majority of material would just be out and available as a single volume.

De Montour wrote: Now, we need a Tarokka Supplement with rules for using it to determine initiative, as an adventure deck and an alternate table for Veteran of the Dread Realms using the major arcana deck.

And because I missed this earlier, the "Power of the Tarot" mini-supplement is one of the things I'm currently working on. It's designed to use the Ravenloft Tarot/Tarokka for card-based initiative, as well as adding new cards to the Adventure Deck. I certainly wouldn't say no to some additional art for the cards. XD

The only complaint I have is no Nidala, mostly because I like Elena. But then you'd have to turn the other two domains into something worth playing in (Belenus is too nice to be an aspect of the Lawgiver), and avoid stepping on toes. So I can manage.

Does make you wonder about the themes you'd write into Nidala, though. Elena is a far more aggressive and less (knowingly) hypocritical fanatic than Yagno is, and that's probably reflected in the domain. I can see the Shadowlands-maybe renamed to the Forest of Shadows here-to be the Cluster embodying dark fantasy, sort of like Warhammer Fantasy before Games Workshop fired all their frontal lobes, or Dragon Age. You know, a land of hidden and usually dangerous magic that always has a price, death and despair is the order of the day, the largest obstacle to saving the world is your own side, and the monsters are never more than a mile away.

I'd also rewrite Ebonbane's soul into, rather than a demon, whoever forged the blade-or even better, the sacrifice whose blood it was quenched in, grown mad with hate for his murderers and the paladin he blamed for his fate. Similarly, it's actually Morgoroth who controls the monsters arrayed against (and justifying the existence of) Elena, Ebonbane is more of a quiet manipulator and offerer of devil's deals (thus playing to his inspiration of Stormbringer, on a political scale).

Leliel wrote:The only complaint I have is no Nidala, mostly because I like Elena.

The Shadowlands is one of the clusters that got cut for space early in the process, so I have an outline of what I want to do with it, but not a ton of finished writing yet. I love Nidala as well, and my direction for it is very similar to yours--dark chivalric romantic fantasy, like Tamora Pierce with more blood and sex. Sithicus is probably winding up there, and Tepest as well.

Some notes from having read the actual rules stuff:

Races:
Lacks Half-Vistani.

Skills:
- Guts – As for any horror game, this skill from previous editions should be re-added. Resisting horrors shouldn't be a freebie in such games, but there should also be the player option to harden yourself beyond the ability limit.
- Socialize – I don’t see the point of it. Understanding etiquette is covered by Common Knowledge. Charming people is covered by Persuasion. Gambling is covered by, well, Gambling. (Although the latter is so irrelevant in most games that is better to cut it out and replace it with simple Smarts checks.)

Flaws:
- Cursed would probably better better in RL work as a flexible detriment, with the standard effect just being the default.
- Iron Allergy requires to keep track of which wound has been caused by what, something that is very alien to the SW rules and adds bookkeeping. (The only exception I know of are trolls, and their wounds rarely need tracking beyond a fight.)

Edges
- Dart Cloud: RoF 3 would mean nine projectiles per round. I have used similar edges for Chanbara games with SW, but for RL it seems a bit over the top.
- Chosen of Ezra / Herald of the Dawn – I wouldn’t tie it too closely to particular religions. Turn Undead is too much of a staple of all clerics to tie it so heavily to a single splat. The way to go to define religion in SW is the deity's code, powers (banned powers, unique powers, trappings), and possibly professional edges to reflect unique orders and the like.
- Reputation – Be very, VERY wary of allowing Charisma penalties to be inverted to bonuses. Charisma penalties are both extremely easy and extremely cheap to stack and can turn ToWs into a cheap stunlock option. (Fatale is similar, but stacking actual Charisma bonuses is much more expensive and requires a lot of dedication at character creation, as most Charisma-enhancing edges are background edges. A Very Attractive Noble character won’t have room for other background edges and will face a hard beginning until she can get to the necessary rank for Fatale.)

@Skyrock,

I mentioned earlier that I too was a bit surprised by the omission of Guts as a Skill. Hidajiremi mentioned that he didn't feel that he wanted to go down that route and that Guts had been done away with in the latest SW edition. I believe that DLR still uses it though and I would have included it among the setting rules.

I'm not convinced by the need for the Vehicle Skill but I can see a place for Socialise. I don't think that a coachman should use the same skill to drive his vehicle as a riverboat man to pilot his trading barge. I think that Socialising is different enough from Common Knowledge to merit it's own skill.

Eg;
At the Duchess' Ball, the characters are vying for the attention of the Duchess herself. The band strikes up a Vaasan Polka. Common Knowledge 'might' allow the character to recognise the music and what the accompanying dance might look like(if he came from Nova Vaasa or if the dance had been in vogue locally for a while). Socialise could allow the character to take to the floor and impress the ladies of the court with his ability to actually perform the dance. A raise might lead to polite clapping and a positive reaction from the gathered aristocrats.
It's the difference between knowing how to act in social encounters and being able to actually carry it off. Conceptually, I like The idea of this skill a lot.

I quite like the idea of the Professional edges to denote the priesthood of the various faiths. It's been a while siince I looked at Clerics. Were all the priests of all the faiths able to rebuke the undead in 3/3.5 ed? Why do I have the notion that was not the case?

Reputation is a straight lift from DLR iirc. It's very much situational. Try using those negative bonuses to get you in to the Duchess' Ball and see where that gets you.

Skyrock wrote: Races:
Lacks Half-Vistani.

They're in there. They're just called "humans." One of my big setting goals with this version of the world was demystifying the Vistani, getting rid of the casual way they're referred to by an ethnic slur, and making it so they're less "superhumans who can do basically anything, even break the rules of the setting" and more "another tribe or ethnic group that happens to be thought of as mysterious because of their way of life." Half-Vistani are no more a different race than half-Falkovnians or half-Mordentish.

Skyrock wrote: Skills:
- Guts – As for any horror game, this skill from previous editions should be re-added. Resisting horrors shouldn't be a freebie in such games, but there should also be the player option to harden yourself beyond the ability limit.

Take the Brave Edge. Even the Deadlands settings don't use Guts anymore. Deadlands Reloaded is the only one of the line that does; neither Hell on Earth or Noir use it, and they're both still horror settings. Personally, I think it's unfair to put a surcharge on being brave in a horror game unless being a coward or being especially brave is a specific part of your character concept. But if you like Guts, you can add it back in and nothing will break.

Skyrock wrote: - Socialize – I don’t see the point of it. Understanding etiquette is covered by Common Knowledge. Charming people is covered by Persuasion. Gambling is covered by, well, Gambling. (Although the latter is so irrelevant in most games that is better to cut it out and replace it with simple Smarts checks.)

Socialize is there to put gambling, playing polite games, and musical talent together in a category. I don't like Gambling as a separate skill outside of a western or noir style game, where "being a gambler" is a big part of the lore. In a Gothic adventure setting, "being good at music and art" is much more of an important facet of the genre, but most people who are good at that also know how to play polite card games, so it's all linked together/

Skyrock wrote: Flaws:
- Cursed would probably better better in RL work as a flexible detriment, with the standard effect just being the default.

Probably. Consider the form of it here as an example. You can build a curse using the Dark Powers rules later in the book if you like.

Skyrock wrote: - Iron Allergy requires to keep track of which wound has been caused by what, something that is very alien to the SW rules and adds bookkeeping. (The only exception I know of are trolls, and their wounds rarely need tracking beyond a fight.)

Not really? I mean, it only asks you to keep track of "did you take a wound from an iron or steel weapon during the golden hour?" If it asked you to keep track of it for long-term natural healing, that would be one thing, but it only asks you to worry about it for an in-game hour, which in my experience is usually a couple of out-of-game minutes.

Skyrock wrote: Edges
- Dart Cloud: RoF 3 would mean nine projectiles per round. I have used similar edges for Chanbara games with SW, but for RL it seems a bit over the top.

I don't know where you're getting that. RoF 3 means "three projectiles per round." How are you getting that out to 9 attacks?

Skyrock wrote: - Chosen of Ezra / Herald of the Dawn – I wouldn’t tie it too closely to particular religions. Turn Undead is too much of a staple of all clerics to tie it so heavily to a single splat. The way to go to define religion in SW is the deity's code, powers (banned powers, unique powers, trappings), and possibly professional edges to reflect unique orders and the like.

Consider it a means of distinguishing the religions in the version of the setting as I'm presenting it. "Turn undead" is only a common power for D&D-style clerics, and it's never really made sense for a lot of the religions. It's a big deal that clerics of Ezra can repulse monsters, so I made that their schtick. Just keep in mind that this is also a version of the setting where clerical magic is literally just another form of sorcery, not something granted by a god.

Skyrock wrote: - Reputation – Be very, VERY wary of allowing Charisma penalties to be inverted to bonuses. Charisma penalties are both extremely easy and extremely cheap to stack and can turn ToWs into a cheap stunlock option. (Fatale is similar, but stacking actual Charisma bonuses is much more expensive and requires a lot of dedication at character creation, as most Charisma-enhancing edges are background edges. A Very Attractive Noble character won’t have room for other background edges and will face a hard beginning until she can get to the necessary rank for Fatale.)

Considering the new way Shaken works, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

De Montour wrote:Reputation is a straight lift from DLR iirc. It's very much situational. Try using those negative bonuses to get you in to the Duchess' Ball and see where that gets you.

Not quite a straight lift--the prerequisites and wording are different. In particular, I made the Rank requirement lower and made it more explicitly Intimidation-required.

hidajiremi wrote:

Skyrock wrote: Edges
- Dart Cloud: RoF 3 would mean nine projectiles per round. I have used similar edges for Chanbara games with SW, but for RL it seems a bit over the top.

I don't know where you're getting that. RoF 3 means "three projectiles per round." How are you getting that out to 9 attacks?

Unless specified differently, SW assumes that each Automatic Fire die represents a number of projectiles equal to RoF, so RoF² projectiles total.

Suppressive Fire would up that even to RoF * 5 = 15 projectiles.

hidajiremi wrote:

Skyrock wrote: - Reputation – Be very, VERY wary of allowing Charisma penalties to be inverted to bonuses. Charisma penalties are both extremely easy and extremely cheap to stack and can turn ToWs into a cheap stunlock option. (Fatale is similar, but stacking actual Charisma bonuses is much more expensive and requires a lot of dedication at character creation, as most Charisma-enhancing edges are background edges. A Very Attractive Noble character won’t have room for other background edges and will face a hard beginning until she can get to the necessary rank for Fatale.)

Considering the new way Shaken works, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

If you use the new Shaken rules, it might not be too terrible.

(I think the new Shaken rules break more than they fix and would never use them. They devalue ToWs, Fear and other means of getting enemies Shaken too much and make damage essentially binary between "mild inconvenience" and "here goes 1/3 of your life".)

hidajiremi wrote:

Skyrock wrote: Races:
Lacks Half-Vistani.

They're in there. They're just called "humans." One of my big setting goals with this version of the world was demystifying the Vistani, getting rid of the casual way they're referred to by an ethnic slur, and making it so they're less "superhumans who can do basically anything, even break the rules of the setting" and more "another tribe or ethnic group that happens to be thought of as mysterious because of their way of life." Half-Vistani are no more a different race than half-Falkovnians or half-Mordentish.

Can I just interject to say how much I approve of this? Seriously, I love a lot of things about Ravenloft, but there's a lot of other elements I could gladly do without, and the Vistani of editions past are one of them. I know that this was basically the fault of the time in which the game was written, and it's certainly better than what White Wolf did, but the Vistani just always bugged the hell out of me, even without the fluff often making it seem to me like they were bastards who deserved to be driven away more often than not.

@Hidajeremi

I've just skimmed my Deadlands Reloaded stuff. I think you are mistaken about Guts not being used in this setting. The Grit rules make direct reference to the Guts Skill and all the NPCs in the Marshall's Handbook have Guts skills. There doesn't appear to anything in the rules revision that came out with the release of 'A Stone and a Hard Place' either.
Still, it's your interpretation of the setting and it's no biggie for me to add Guts in myself.