Café de Nuit

I tend to picture them as LE gods of justice. They have a twisted sense of justice where the punishment of wrong doing is the be all and end all. They like to punish people in ironic ways but couldn't care less if others get hurt in the process. They don't directly punish people who aren't guilty of anything but if they get hurt as a result of them punishing someone else that is too bad for them. For example, Tatayana gets reincaanated over and over again with her life ending in some trajedy or other but that is becuase it punishes Strahd not because of anything she's done or not done. If Strahd would give up on chasing her they would do nothing to her. Drakov's men keep getting slaughtered in useless wars but again that has to do with Drakov's punishment. If he stopped getting into useless wars the DPs wouldn't suddenly kill his people for kicks.

[I'm assuming you meant Dark Powers and not Dark Lords. Editted the title for you...]

Thanks, I'm sorry about that.

A touchy subject, and one left intentionally vagueby the designers. THey are supposed to be the deus ex machina of the setting, something for the peasants to shake their fists at when things go against them. Or a handy DM tool to re-route the plot the way they want, heavy-handed as that is. SO as many replies as you get to this thread you will get that many theories as we try (like any good pilgrim) to explain that which we cannot understand.

Your idea as gods of justice is sound. Makes a lot of sense, particularly when the definithion of justice is taken to the Nth degree.

I envision them as godlings; very powerful entities of a small number (4, i think). I imagine them existing outside of any pantheon, not actually being deities themselves. But when they began creating a world (which, at first was void), they drew the attention of a powerful primary god from Barovia's prime material, who offered them Strahd. That world had possibly never seen a conqueror like Strahd before, and decided to remove the threat. So the godlings hewed Barovia from this world and transplanted it to theirs. This worked out so nicely for the gods of that plane, that they later offered Forlorn as well. (Same prime in my view; in fact Forfar is a possible homeland for Alek Gwilym)

The godlings (now officially the DP) began petitioning for other deviant souls on other primes, and their requests seemed helpful.. Here was an easy way to get rid of some particularly nasty sorts. Due to the nature of the DP, they would only take creatures they thought were 'fun', which explains why every Zhentarim or similar evil society wan't absorbed (In addition to their protection by their own patrons, like Cyric).

The perverse pleasure they were taking in their new playground wore on one of the Dark Powers, who did not see the justice in the persecution of innocents. THis one out of all of them realized that true balance was still vital, and just populating the realm with hate and evil would swiftly lead their world to collapse. So this one Dark Power set about creating that balance and took shape as Madame Eva.

Madame Eva is one of the true tragic heroes of the setting. She must blur the lines of goodness and evil in order for the world to keep existing. Her plans cannot make sense in a temporal nature, to mere humans for whom goodness really only applies to themselves.

Wanted to break that up a little....

Madame Eva has taken an active hand in the preservation of the Demiplane more than once, but most especially during the Great Upheaval. She would not act directly against her fellows, but used mortals to prevent the collapse taht the release of the darklords would have created. The Land is tied to these beings, and without them the innocent population would be lost. She is their champion though they would never understand that.

She kept Gundarak from fading away at Gundar's death. She guided the heroes (PCs) through the hexad to save the Core. She works now to prevent the TIme of Unparalleled Darkness, which is another attempt by her fellows to literally shut the lights out on this little project they have gotten bored with. They've even stopped grabbing villains from other worlds, and as their interest wanes, the fate of all the beings of their demiplane becomes tenuous!

Last one, i promise:

You can see the strength of the Dark Powers growing over time. Barovia was given to them, next they dragged in tiny Forlorn. Next a sliver of the Black Land to create Har-Akir. Arak lead his people there from the Plane of Shadow because a realm of horror seemed like a better alternative to life under Gwydion, yet even this seems to have occured outside the will of the DP, even if they were giving Arak the suggestions.

Next came Mordent, which was a great example of two powerful "mortals" almost unmaking the entire demiplane themselves! I believe it was Azalin's own experiments that "taught" the DP how to create their own lands, and they used it to full effect when he entered the Mists and they finally made Darkon, their first 'created' domain!

After this, domain creation became a lot less "messy." Darkon is ironic in its size, which is huge compared to Barovia, but puny compared to Knurl and the lands Azalin could have lorded over on Oerth. But subsequent domains were a little more tailored to their specific lords. The DP had finally come into their own and it lasted abouts 2 centuries. But nothing is more dangerous to mortals than bored and uninvolved creators, and that may really be the unmaking of the entire place...

I tend to picture them as playmates constructing an elaborate game with their favorite toys (i.e. the Darklords). Sometimes, they see a toy they like in another realm and take it for themselves, although this is a fairly rare occurrence (in almost three centures of playing, I'd estimate they've done it about three dozen times by canon), or someone accidently wanders into their game. They prefer unique toys, although sometimes they grab a spare, just in case something unforseen happens to mess up their scenario (i.e. Grand Conjunction).

Yes, it makes them seem a bit childish, but the DP's do have an amazingly mature sense of aesthetics, so perhaps it's more accurate to think of them as (not-quite-sane) artists crafting a masterpiece... hmm... perhaps the DP's are really just a certain Lemot Sediam Juste...

I picture them as corporate executives sitting around the table of whatever company currently owns the rights to Ravenloft wondering how much more money they can make off this property without actually having to pay quality creators.

I tend to see them as experimenters who are trying to create new and interesting forms of Evil. Each Dark Lord is an exemplar of a certain type of Evil. Many of the Darklords were given Darklord status only after they'd demonstrated that they were in danger of being destroyed in their native environment. For example, Azalin had just been overthrown in his native world, Ivan ran into the Mists to escape after his murderous tendencies were exposed, the Wererats who founded Richemulot were fleeing exterminators. By giving these creatures power, by making them Darklords, the Dark Powers help conserve these unique forms of Evil. But it's necessary to insure that the Darklords don't destroy each other. That's why Ravenloft is divided into Domains; to preserve the diversity of the different varieties of Evil they have collected. If the different Dark Lords could go anywhere they wanted in Ravenloft, then the more powerful and aggressive Lords would overrun the weaker Domains.

However, the Dark Powers are not merely collectors of Evil. They want to see what happens when different forms of Evil are cross-fertilized. That's why less powerful creatures are allowed to cross domain barriers.
For example, the Living Brain is a product of Mad Science created by Dr. Mordenheim who has been living in Dementlieu and competing with d'Honaire for years. As a creature whose development has been profoundly influenced by both Mordenheim and d'Honaire, the Living Brain has become a unique type of Evil creature in its own right.

I envision the Dark Powers as nothing. Mere laws of the universe, like gravity. To ask why the Powers twist the evil is like asking why water is wet.

After all, the DP don't make monsters, they merely portray the monsters people already are.

I'm partial to the godling experimenter theory though i don't quite see the justice angle that much (i.e. they are NE rather than LE imho). The demiplane is a research into human nature and the nature of evil.

I'm a bit undecided wether they are possibly outcast daemons or transcended demiliches that dabble in the ethereal plane. Though I'm leaning towards the latter as the demiliches are already tied to the ethereal in D&D canon. Strahd's pact with Death and the involvement of an arcanoloth in the earliest history of the Demiplane point towards at least some fiendish involvement.

See also the old thread on the nature of the Dark Powers. Check out Rotipher's excellent analysis in that thread. Later in that thread I quote the Demilich theory put forth by TheSerge on dicefreaks.

Dang, she's good!

Yup. Which makes the end of that thread so much more depressing. Keeping the best part secret.

The Giamarga wrote:I'm partial to the godling experimenter theory though i don't quite see the justice angle that much (i.e. they are NE rather than LE imho). The demiplane is a research into human nature and the nature of evil.

I'm a bit undecided wether they are possibly outcast daemons or transcended demiliches that dabble in the ethereal plane. Though I'm leaning towards the latter as the demiliches are already tied to the ethereal in D&D canon. Strahd's pact with Death and the involvement of an arcanoloth in the earliest history of the Demiplane point towards at least some fiendish involvement.

See also the old thread on the nature of the Dark Powers. Check out Rotipher's excellent analysis in that thread. Later in that thread I quote the Demilich theory put forth by TheSerge on dicefreaks.

Basically they are the manifestation of the harshest kind of justice. I think this way because ALL the darklords have ironic punishments. All the DLs have done something to deserve severe punishment, it is not at all random. I can't see them as anything other than LE. The DPs don't care about who else gets hurt as long as the Dark Lords are hurt.

Looks-wise I see them as a giant swirling mist.